Electric operation into Penn Station

Did the New Haven run on AC overhead all the way to Penn Station, or did they use the LIRR 600v third rail to complete the journey? I know the FL9's were designed to run off either NYC's under-running or LIRR's over-running third rail... but what about the straight electric locomotives?

-otto-

Yes, the NH ran all A/C trains to and from Penn Station NY. Scott Hartley, (a big NH fan) put out a book called "New Haven RR-The Final Decades", an excellent color pictorial of the New Haven in the 1950's and 60's.
He has many pictures of NH trains with A/C power going over Hell Gate Bridge into PSNY.

Thanks! I need that book...

Otto

The book “The New York Connecting Railroad” (Chapter 5) gives one a history into the New Haven’s entry into Penn Station. The electrified service was started in April 1918, a year after the completion of the Hell Gate Bridge. Despite the fact that NH electric locomotives were able to run on third rail, they were still required to change at Harold Interlocking with PRR DC units. The book does not fully give the reasons, but there may have been some jurisdictional or signaling requirements for this. Eventually in the 1930’s the PPR would convert the main line to Washington to an overhead catenary system. I’m assuming at this point the locomotive change at Harold Interlocking was dispensed with. The DD-1 locomotives were sent to LIRR to do other duties.

On the Queens side of the approach to the Hell Gate Bridge one can see two different types of catenary systems, (1) The older latticework structures employed by the New Haven and (2) the newer welded tubular “deco” post the were possibly supplied by the NYCRR or the PRR.

In the very early period of NHRR trains operating in and through Penn Station, the existing NHRR AC/DC electric motors
had third rail equipment but in those days the shoes and mechs were not able to be used on both over and under running
third rail.
Noel Weaver

Noel, thanks for the info.

That makes sense. It’s strange that the NH did not have dedicated electric locomotives for Penn Station with the over-running shoes. I guess this would have been another item to manage. I read somewhere that after the wires went up at Penn Station some of the NH electric locomotives dedicated to this station had the GCT shoes removed.

Chuck
Alexandria, VA

chnhrr wrote:Otto -- The book “The New York Connecting Railroad” (Chapter 5) gives one a history into the New Haven’s entry into Penn Station.

Thank you!! You know, I worked on that book. So busy laying it out, I never read it!! Now I have the excuse to go back and check it out.

-otto-

Chuck wrote:
It’s strange that the NH did not have dedicated electric locomotives for Penn Station with the over-running shoes. I guess this would have been another item to manage. I read somewhere that after the wires went up at Penn Station some of the NH electric locomotives dedicated to this station had the GCT shoes removed.

Dedicated electrics for Penn Station would have been underutilized resources. Despite being officially "assigned" for specific trains, the electrics were pooled. Plus, I do not believe the EP-2s were cab signal equipped, necessary for running into Penn Station. Once the PRR wire went up, the shoe issue became a moot point. Again, being pooled, no engines were ever dedicated to Penn Station service (thus no GCT shoe removal) except for the passenger-equipped EF-3s (which never had shoes to begin with).

When the PRR finished their overhead electrification in NYC in 1933, NH 0305-0308 were equipped with PRR cab signal to operate directly into NY Station. These were the only 0300 series motors so equipped.
When the 0351 series motors were delivered in 1931, they too could not operate into NY Station. They were exchanged for PRR DD-1 motors at Cabin 2 until 1933. All 10 0351 series motors were eventually equipped with PRR cab signal.

The 350's (0351 series when delivered) were equipped with cab signals in time for the start up of through operations between New Haven and Penn Station. This was an operation that probably took place at Van Nest as they could practically
build a new locomotive at that facility.
I am missing a critical timetable for 1933 but as of April 30, 1933 all Penn Station trains still were stopping at SS-2 to change
engines while as of April 24, 1934 none of them were.
Up until then the New Haven engineers did not run into Penn Station either, PRR engine crews handled NHRR trains between
SS-2 and Penn Station using PRR DD-1's.
Noel Weaver

How well did the over-under shoes operate on the FL9's? I know that the shoes were eventually removed. I'm wondering if the technology that was used back then is being incorporated into the new NH M8's.

On the FL-9's the same shoe and shoe mech would work both in GCT and Penn Station with no adjustments whatsoever.
We even had a couple of night jobs where the engines went from Penn Station to Grand Central light after the train arrived
with the same crew. If FL-9's were used on these jobs they ran on both types of third rail on the same trip. There has been
a more recent theory that third rail shoes could not be used on both types of third rail at the same time but EMD proved this
wrong way back in the 60's.
I would not see any need for shoes on the M-8's as they are AC equipped with pantographs anyway and they probably would
not be able to operate into Penn Station without removing the third rail shoes first anyway.
Noel Weaver

The UA Turbotrain which originally operated into GCT on 3rd rail was eventually shifted over to Penn and ran on LIRR 3rd rail. I believe their shoe type and mechanisms were the same as the FL9s.
It would appear that the contact surface on the ex-NYC under-running 3rd rail was the same height as the LIRR over-running 3rd rail.