EL Fans Rejoice! The Erie Lackawanna Lives!

I am working on a "What If..." project suggesting the EL remained independent from Conrail in 1976 and got back on their feet by the early 1980s and rose to success!

In this alternate history, the EL is alive and well in 2005 and had even participated in the June 01, 1999 split up of Conrail along with CSX, Delaware & Hudson, and Norfolk Southern. Much of what CSX acquired from Conrail is divided up between the EL/DH. NS gets the share that they got in reality wit the exception of ERIE/DLW tracks. This rise to success is mostly thanks to slight alterations of two major historical events. Hurricane Agnes drifts out to sea long before it could devastate the eastern half of the railroad and the fuel crisis of the 1970s is not so hard felt by the railroads as legislation was passed to allow the railroads to purchase fuel at a lower costs with less limitations being deemed that they are a "Necessary Service." These two alterations allow the EL to limp by April 01, 1976 on their own as the original "Conrail Plan" draft suggested. Keeping their head above water with lucrative UPS traffic and the initial confusion caused by the formation of Conrail, they reach the 1980s where another two significant events attribute to their rise to success: Deregulation of railroad pricing and the dawn of the intermodal age. With the Erie Railroad built with much High & Wide clearance, the EL ready and willing to accept this new traffic. A deal is struck with Southern Pacific to form a land bridge service with APL stack trains being handed off at Chicago and brought to Croxton. This new super-lucrative service opens the flood gates and along with UPS and other pig traffic, the railroad is able to reinvent themselves and become a major player in the Northeast.

Here is a recent video I've made with equipment I have made so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdSy30ibiG0

A system map of the project can be found here: http://sullivan1985.deviantart.com/art/ ... -342964619

To follow the project with the most recent updates, "Like" the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ErieLack

Eventually a dedicated website will be finished, but I do try to keep the Facebook page current.

Enjoy! Remember, this is just a "What If..." project. Use your imagination. There are certain to be inaccuracies and things that just could not have happened. Point is, just have fun!

Wow, very cool! I love it!
beautiful modeling!

Im from Waverly NY (on the EL mainline) but was only 7 years old in 1976, so I *just missed* the EL (and the nearby LV)
(I started railfanning in Waverly & Sayre when I was 14 in 1983)
I would love to see these modern EL locos running through Waverly today!

How did the EL wind up with the old New York Central mainline across upstate NY? (Buffalo to Albany)

Scot

scottychaos wrote:How did the EL wind up with the old New York Central mainline across upstate NY? (Buffalo to Albany)

The way I'm working it out is that the ex-NYC lines are awarded to the Erie Lackawanna at the split of Conrail. The D&H also gets a handful of ex-Conrail/NYC territory. However, CSX does have rights over the River Line to Selkirk and the B&A to Boston. That's just a rough idea. I will elaborate further in time.

Love it, but with one very minor and one personally major quibble relative to the map.

Minor- on the map: Conklin is in NY, not PA.

Major- my beloved hometown Utica branch can't even survive this era! The horror. At the time of the CR split and up until about 2000, the Utica line was in better shape and much better maintained than the Syracuse side. The famed "Scranton Bull" ran out of Utica, down through Waterville, Norwich, and Oxford, to Binghamton and then its namesake city. I'd argue that the Utica side survived and that Victory Markets was able to take such full advantage of TOFC traffic that they remained a major local customer on the branch.

But all in all, love it and the models are fantastic!

JoeCollege wrote:Minor- on the map: Conklin is in NY, not PA.

So it is! Corrected! Thanks.

JoeCollege wrote:Major- my beloved hometown Utica branch can't even survive this era!

Fear not! It may not be operated by the Erie Lackawanna any more but the line to Utica are now operated by the NYSW in similar fashion to how they operate today along with a few changes. It's part of a group effort and each of us are working on certain railroads.

This is really a cool concept and I think you have put a considerable amount of thought in this! I have a
question, though. Is it my own eyes or do the maroon and brown colors on the system map seem extremely
similar? Reason I ask is because there are some colors that I have distinguishing from each other.

Great work Sully!

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:This is really a cool concept and I think you have put a considerable amount of thought in this! I have a
question, though. Is it my own eyes or do the maroon and brown colors on the system map seem extremely
similar? Reason I ask is because there are some colors that I have distinguishing from each other.

Great work Sully!

Charlie

They are and I'm going to change it but to make it simple, EL runs on NS rights from St. Louis to Kansas City.

Thanks Sully, I really wasn't sure. I did notice that it ran all the way to K.C.

Again, great work.......looking forward to seeing more.

Charlie

One major quibble.

You show the D&H as having the old Binghamton to Syracuse DL&W branch with it continuing to Montreal on the old NYC Watertown secondary. The two never met.

The NYC Watertown secondary cuts off the Old NYC Water level mainline over a mile east of where the DL&W Oswego branch went under the NYC Water Level mainline.

The NYC Watertown secondary goes up the east side of Lake Onondaga, to Liverpool, then to Woodard, where the Oswego branch cut off the Watertown secondary. The Oswego Branch went thru Phoenix, the east side of Fulton and entered east side of Oswego

The DL&W Oswego Branch went up the west side of Lake Onondaga to Baldwinsville, west side of Fulton and entered the west side of Oswego.

From Lake Onondaga to Lake Ontario, the Oswego River runs between the two rail lines. No feasible connections between them until Oswego.

Without a prohibitively massive and expensive restructuring of the RR's in the City of Syracuse, the trains from Binghamton could never travel thru to Woodard or on to Watertown or Montreal.

A feasible option, is to continue the D&H on the DL&W to Oswego, then add the old Hojack Rochester to Pulaski mainline, with trackage rights to Watertown and Montreal. The DL&W did meet the Hojack mainline in Oswego. The Hojack mainline ran from Pulaski thru Oswego connecting with both the NYC Oswego Branch and DL&W Oswego branch on to way to Rochester.

I grew up in this area, and went to college in Oswego.


Also if the Erie was able to stay out of Conrail, It would have made sense to add the NYC Corning secondary from Lyons NY to Williamsport PA, and then add the Reading to the Erie, which would have added Philadelphia and central Eastern Pa to its traffic base and allowing competition between NYC and Philadelphia with two RR's servicing the areas. You would also add a connection at Shippingsburg PA to the current NS. With traffic being transferred to the Erie proper either at Scranton or Williamsport PA, or Newark/Jersey City NJ. It would basically be an end to end merger.

(Edited because I didn't read map correctly)

Carry on!

Clif wrote:You show the D&H as having the old Binghamton to Syracuse DL&W branch with it continuing to Montreal on the old NYC Watertown secondary. The two never met.

The NYC Watertown secondary cuts off the Old NYC Water level mainline over a mile east of where the DL&W Oswego branch went under the NYC Water Level mainline.

They may have never met in the days of the NYC and DL&W but from what I see based on the latest satellite maps from Google is that they could meet each other using the ex-NYC. The way we have worked it out is at the split of Conrail, the Watertown was awarded to the D&H and they are awarded trackage rights over the Water Level to access the ex-DLW Syracuse Branch. It appears that during Conrails time that the two lines where made accessible. If they never physically where by a direct move, then we just say a new interlocking was built to allow for such moves.

Eventually I will do mini-maps of each major city where there is a lot going on to illustrate changes. Right now, Syracuse (along with a lot of other busy spots) is just a grey dot on the map.

Clif wrote:The NYC Watertown secondary goes up the east side of Lake Onondaga, to Liverpool, then to Woodard, where the Oswego branch cut off the Watertown secondary. The Oswego Branch went thru Phoenix, the east side of Fulton and entered east side of Oswego

The DL&W Oswego Branch went up the west side of Lake Onondaga to Baldwinsville, west side of Fulton and entered the west side of Oswego.

From Lake Onondaga to Lake Ontario, the Oswego River runs between the two rail lines. No feasible connections between them until Oswego.

Without a prohibitively massive and expensive restructuring of the RR's in the City of Syracuse, the trains from Binghamton could never travel thru to Woodard or on to Watertown or Montreal.

That I can see. Based on this map (Large PDF - 24MB) and on these recent Sattalite Maps: CSX CP-291 & CSX CP 293, it appears that all that would be required to link up these two railroads together would be to extend the limits of CP-291 and add a pair of new powered switches in the interlocking. Nothing to major. Keep in mind, in this alternate history I've created, Conrail is exactly as it was minus the territories it would have picked up from the Erie Lackawanna. So I'm using this map and the most recent satellite maps as references to see what minor or major changes would have to be made to link these projects together.

The way we have it broken down is that the D&H will get the line to Oswego on the north side of the river. The EL gets the old DL&W line on the south side of the river. Both lines being treated as secondaries or industrial tracks that are served by only a local job. Nothing to crazy.

Also, we have worked it out that a few EL trains from the western parts of the railroad will run directly to Montreal with a D&H crew. Trains will arrive at CP-293 and a crew change will occur and they will use the Montreal Line to the Joint CP/D&H yard in Côte Saint-Luc, QC.

Clif wrote:A feasible option, is to continue the D&H on the DL&W to Oswego, then add the old Hojack Rochester to Pulaski mainline, with trackage rights to Watertown and Montreal. The DL&W did meet the Hojack mainline in Oswego. The Hojack mainline ran from Pulaski thru Oswego connecting with both the NYC Oswego Branch and DL&W Oswego branch on to way to Rochester.

I see the RoW you're talking about but the problem with it is it appears it was torn up almost entirely a long time ago. My friend who is spearheading the D&H portion of this project is trying to make it look like that by the time of the Conrail breakup in 1999, the D&H is doing well, but is not able to take on a massive line building program. They benefit from the CR split because they can acquire new markets without having to build entirely new railroads. They also get the share of CR/LMS C40-8s that WOULD have went to CN.

Clif wrote:Also if the Erie was able to stay out of Conrail, It would have made sense to add the NYC Corning secondary from Lyons NY to Williamsport PA, and then add the Reading to the Erie, which would have added Philadelphia and central Eastern Pa to its traffic base and allowing competition between NYC and Philadelphia with two RR's servicing the areas. You would also add a connection at Shippingsburg PA to the current NS. With traffic being transferred to the Erie proper either at Scranton or Williamsport PA, or Newark/Jersey City NJ. It would basically be an end to end merger.

I see the branch you're talking about but the problem is that in 1976 that was a Penn Central branch that because part of Conrail. It also doesn't really fit the Erie Lackawanna picture. The railroad would look like this 1974 Official System Map until about the early 1980s when many smaller branch lines are abandoned during a company restructuring.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that the EL would have remained independent from Conrail. This actually was supposed to happen. If you ever happen to find a book called "The Conrail Plan", take a look at what draft you're reading. The first draft names all the railroads that became Conrail with the exception of the Erie Lackawanna. It wasn't until the last minute that the EL joined Conrail that the Second Draft was published. The rest from there is history. I've kind of toyed with major historical events that contributed to the sever hard times that assisted in the downfall of the railroad like making Hurricane Agnes go out to see before hitting the Northeast and having railroads receive Government Assistance when it came to fuel for running their services.

Also, to have one already struggling railroad acquire another struggling railroad would not really work out to well in my eyes. It also interferes with a third party who is modeling the NS side of the project.

Please don't take my breakdown of your post as a way of saying I don't appreciate your input, because I certainly do welcome your breakdown of the area. If you would like to elaborate further on what you have written, please feel free to draw up a diagram and post it in this thread. I do have a written history of how the EL unfolded starting from the date of the ERIE/DLW merger and working to present day. Eventually I will publish it, but it still needs a lot of polish and research.

The best part about this project is that none of it is real, so small liberties can be taken to get trains to places they normally wouldn't be able to in reality. New interlockings and switches can be put in, new short connections, etc. For example, the EL doesn't sell off the old DL&W Boonton Line at Garret Mountain to the NJDOT to make room for I-80. Instead they accept the original proposal from the state to build a new single track line along side I-80. Buy doing this, I've avoid the mess the EL created for themselves by having to re-route trains over the ex-Erie NY&GL line. This allows the EL to maintain a true freight line and make the "New Jersey Cutoff" a viable route to run freight into the New Jersey market instead of its actual fate of being torn up by Conrail in 1983. The only height clearance project that would have had to occur on this line to accept stack trains would be the tiny Kingsland Tunnel in Lyndhurst, NJ. Aside from this, this line would have been entirely ready to accept excess height and double height cars.

charlie6017 wrote:Thanks Sully, I really wasn't sure. I did notice that it ran all the way to K.C.

I know that Kansas City is one of the largest interchange points in the country with just about all the Class 1 railroads. The EL owned properties only reach as far as St. Louis thanks to properties acquired from the Conrail breakup. EL wanted to run a handful of trains to Kansas City directly and an agreement was reached with Norfolk Southern to use the old Wabash Line from St. Louis, to Moberly and ultimately to KC.

charlie6017 wrote:(Edited because I didn't read map correctly)

Carry on!

What was your post! I don't remember. The map is constantly changing as I research things.

Sorry Sully........I had written (incorrectly) that the EL's former DL&W Syracuse branch could be connected
to the Montreal Secondary portion by running across the former NYC Water Level from CPs 293 at the Syracuse
Branch to CP 291 which is where the Montreal Secondary connects. I had failed to see that the D&H would be
owning that line. I has mistakenly thought that the EL would be owning that.

Charlie

charlie6017 wrote:Sorry Sully........I had written (incorrectly) that the EL's former DL&W Syracuse branch could be connected
to the Montreal Secondary portion by running across the former NYC Water Level from CPs 293 at the Syracuse
Branch to CP 291 which is where the Montreal Secondary connects. I had failed to see that the D&H would be
owning that line. I has mistakenly thought that the EL would be owning that.

Charlie

It is still up for interpretation between me and my buddy who runs the D&H project. However, Between CP-291 and CP-293 is definitely where all the action happens. While there might not actually be powered interlocking switches at these locations to make it possible for a direct move from on of these lines to the next, there is plenty of room available between these locations to allow for it. For the purposes of this project, when the D&H is awarded the Montreal Line and purchases the Syracuse Branch from the EL, These two interlockings are reconfigured to allow for direct moves between the two lines and the D&H is awarded trackage rights over this small segment. CP-293 is also a crew change point for EL trains destined for Montreal from the west. A D&H crew will take over and run the train to the CP/DH yard in Côte Saint-Luc, QC.

I've also just modified the map a little bit more detailing more of the smaller branch lines coming from the mains.

I have an old Erie timetable (1940) and a Lackawanna one (1948), as well as an E-L employee timetable from 1968. Don't know if they'll be of any use to you, but I'll bring them down with me next time!