Derailment= East Palestine Ohio

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:27 pm Other than claims of dead livestock and itchy eyes, the environmental damage does seem minimal in comparison to pipeline incidents involving ethanol and MBTE spills.

I like how the Times tried to bring Trump into this, but admits at the very end later that the Obama changes which were rolled back (crew size and electronic braking) wouldn't have mattered. It's a great distraction from Mayor Pete's absence until a week after the accident and some calls for his resignation late last week.

Well in fairness some right-wing media figures are also treating this as a huge environmental disaster to try to fear monger with conspiratorial points that the administration is indifferent to the plights of these people because they voted for Trump and to help stoke the ongoing culture war being waged by certain elements of the right and left. Media on both sides are talking up this incident - there is admittedly a big difference in coverage from certain right wing populist talking heads on a certain cable network and your more traditional right of center supply side conservative more investor friendly publications like WSJ but the point remains both left and right leaning media are talking this incident up.

With all due respect to those of us here that are investors of railroad firms, this incident is certainly significant enough to warrant some scrutiny and investigation of NS and any of its business practices that may have contributed. That doesn't mean that I support that we should over-react with talk of nationalizing the rail industry or even putting unreasonable restrictions on business practices that are of undue harm to shareholders and investors. Obviously benefiting the shareholders of a firm is the primary goal of any firm and I am not arguing that it shouldn't be, but any system or business practice can be overly indulged in or abused regardless of its honest intentions - this doesn't mean that PSR needs to be 100% rolled back industry wide or essentially banned with regulations unfair to investors, but if investigation shows certain roads are overindulging in PSR dogma and taking it too far and its affecting safe operations, that warrants some scrutiny.

This is not meant to be anti investor or anti Wall Street across the board. Investment is a crucial part of the lifeblood of our economy, and I am all for investors earning the fair return they are entitled to, but there is a difference between your average investor and the pump and dump short term gain mentality that certain big investment firms engage in. Certain decisions that may be beneficial for short term gain can ultimately harm long term stability. I do believe an aspect of our investment culture is overly fixated on maximizing short term gains and return at all costs without regard to the long term which in my opinion isn't fair to longer term investors who could be harmed by longer term consequences. The idea and principles of PSR is surely good intentioned, but any idea can be abused or overdone in its execution and there do need to be some guardrails for what is a crucial industry in transporting goods across the country.

From https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/ap- ... erailment/

“The Norfolk Southern train derailment has upended the lives of East Palestine families, and EPA’s order will ensure the company is held accountable for jeopardizing the health and safety of this community,” EPA Administrator Michael Regan said in a statement ahead of a planned news conference with the governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania.

“Let me be clear: Norfolk Southern will pay for cleaning up the mess they created and for the trauma they’ve inflicted on this community,” he said.

“In no way shape or form will Norfolk Southern get off the hook for the mess they created,” Regan said at the press conference.

He added that he knows the order “cannot undo the nightmare that families in this town have been living with, but it will begin to deliver much needed comfort for the pain that Norfolk Southern has caused.”

Talk about putting politics ahead of facts! While the situation certainly IS terrible and serious, IMHO it's downright irresponsible for a government agency to assign blame, intent and indifference to a company before all the facts are in and analyzed. The administration has been taking criticism, now they are suddenly talking tough and attempting to appear effective.

It MAY be NS brought this about through PSR and imprudent practices. It also MAY be something(s) totally unforeseen. Most likely it will be a combination. But for the EPA to suggest NS was somehow "OK" with this disaster is way out of line.

The thought occurs to me - if one of XYZ Airline's planes had crashed into a chemical plant, releasing similar toxins, would they already be castigating XYZ Airlines with the same vituperative?

Investigation is warranted but it does seem premature to officially assign blame before even the official NTSB investigation is complete. In fairness though it's not just the Biden admin or its friendly media playing politics here. Some of the fear mongering stuff coming out of a certain anti Biden cable news station about this incident is quite ridiculous and laughable. It's unfortunate how even events like this have to get so political and polarized.

When can we expect the NTSB to complete its investigation?

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:40 pm When can we expect the NTSB to complete its investigation?

BD: You need to contact the NTSB directly with your questions concerning the EP derailment.

There is no one here in this topic that can speak for the NTSB...MACTRAXX

Welp... guess who's coming to East Palestine?

https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/ea ... town-hall/

EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (WKBN) – Environmental Activist Erin Brockovich announced on Sunday that she’s moving the date of her visit to East Palestine by one day.

She tweeted Sunday afternoon that she’ll be coming to the village on Friday. Initially, she’d said she would attend a town hall on Thursday.

I better find some popcorn and make sure I got enough butter on hand...

Bracdude181 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:40 pm When can we expect the NTSB to complete its investigation?

The NTSB is very deliberate and detailed; they are never fast at issuing a report. Occasionally, they will issue an alert for a found hazard that may recur, such as the un-lubricated jackscrews on the Air Alaska flight or similar; then it's up to the FAA to issue an order.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:41 pm Investigation is warranted but it does seem premature to officially assign blame before even the official NTSB investigation is complete.

I'm not sure what an investigation may show that reduces NS's liability on this. It's their track, it's their consist. They didn't hit someone at a crossing. Maybe they can point at the car owner, but I'm dubious.

uur noted:
"Then there is a rush to another panacea, electronic braking"

This is a yellow-journalism equivalent of Alfred Hitchcock's "MacGuffin".

What would EP braking have done to prevent a bearing journal from self-destructing?

And... once the derailment began... what could EP braking have done that would mitigate the pileup? The train would be in emergency, anyway.

(j.albert)

I'm not goingto read thru 8 pages here. I've heard it said there ere signs several miles of sparks on axels,etc. I am concovined if there were a caboose at the end of these trains carrying these cargoes with at least a two man caboose crew to watch both sides os the train. This accident could have been detected miles earlier and avoided. The 2 man crew in the loco can not safely watch a 1 mile train. Lumber maybe, chemicals NO!

Fishrrman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:07 pm

What would EP braking have done to prevent a bearing journal from self-destructing?

In this case, not much. But ECP begets a consist-length data network, and that would allow not just brake status reporting, but hotbox and other conditions as well.

In the case of https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... R2005.pdf , ECP brakes would have saved the lives of the crew and $3 million in damage.

If ECP braking were installed, wouldn't it have caused all cars to brake at as close to the same time as possible given the speed of light instead of leading cars braking before trailing cars? I understand the train was already in emergency, but think if all cars applied their brakes together at once, it would have reduced the scope of the accident.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:44 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:27 pm Other than claims of dead livestock and itchy eyes, the environmental damage does seem minimal in comparison to pipeline incidents involving ethanol and MBTE spills.

I like how the Times tried to bring Trump into this, but admits at the very end later that the Obama changes which were rolled back (crew size and electronic braking) wouldn't have mattered. It's a great distraction from Mayor Pete's absence until a week after the accident and some calls for his resignation late last week.

Well in fairness some right-wing media figures are also treating this as a huge environmental disaster to try to fear monger with conspiratorial points that the administration is indifferent to the plights of these people because they voted for Trump and to help stoke the ongoing culture war being waged by certain elements of the right and left. Media on both sides are talking up this incident - there is admittedly a big difference in coverage from certain right wing populist talking heads on a certain cable network and your more traditional right of center supply side conservative more investor friendly publications like WSJ but the point remains both left and right leaning media are talking this incident up.

With all due respect to those of us here that are investors of railroad firms, this incident is certainly significant enough to warrant some scrutiny and investigation of NS and any of its business practices that may have contributed. That doesn't mean that I support that we should over-react with talk of nationalizing the rail industry or even putting unreasonable restrictions on business practices that are of undue harm to shareholders and investors. Obviously benefiting the shareholders of a firm is the primary goal of any firm and I am not arguing that it shouldn't be, but any system or business practice can be overly indulged in or abused regardless of its honest intentions - this doesn't mean that PSR needs to be 100% rolled back industry wide or essentially banned with regulations unfair to investors, but if investigation shows certain roads are overindulging in PSR dogma and taking it too far and its affecting safe operations, that warrants some scrutiny.

This is not meant to be anti investor or anti Wall Street across the board. Investment is a crucial part of the lifeblood of our economy, and I am all for investors earning the fair return they are entitled to, but there is a difference between your average investor and the pump and dump short term gain mentality that certain big investment firms engage in. Certain decisions that may be beneficial for short term gain can ultimately harm long term stability. I do believe an aspect of our investment culture is overly fixated on maximizing short term gains and return at all costs without regard to the long term which in my opinion isn't fair to longer term investors who could be harmed by longer term consequences. The idea and principles of PSR is surely good intentioned, but any idea can be abused or overdone in its execution and there do need to be some guardrails for what is a crucial industry in transporting goods across the country.

dude this wasnt even on the news for over a week after it happened. something strange is going on here. if this was in new york or new jersey, it would be a huge story. it's like these poor people don't even matter.

RandallW wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:36 am If ECP braking were installed, wouldn't it have caused all cars to brake at as close to the same time as possible given the speed of light instead of leading cars braking before trailing cars? I understand the train was already in emergency, but think if all cars applied their brakes together at once, it would have reduced the scope of the accident.

Yes, the "signal" to apply, or release the brakes, would be practically instantaneous with ECP brakes. On the giant PSR trains run today, I can count with my hands how long the signal takes to travel, the air being that signal. It's even slower in cold weather, like now.

I can even give the conductor a rough estimate on where the problem is. If I see the EOT drop its pressure before the mid train DP or head end drops, I know the problem is closer to the rear of the train.

That instant setup on all cars would certainly reduce the forces evolved, but that would add complexity and more inspections to make sure the system is working on the cars themselves since they take a lot of abuse.

It would require more people and more downtime and once again, PSR can't have any of that.

Ohio train derailment: NTSB chair issues 'plea to those spreading misinformation'

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-train-de ... d=97281671

Fair Use:

Homendy then tweeted: "That leads me to my last point: anyone speculating about what happened, didn’t happen, or should've happened is misleading a suffering community -- PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION."

The NTSB chair addressed speculation that a rule on electronically controlled pneumatic (ECP) breaks -- if implemented -- would have prevented the train derailment, which she said was "FALSE."

"The ECP braking rule would've applied ONLY to HIGH HAZARD FLAMMABLE TRAINS. The train that derailed in East Palestine was a MIXED FREIGHT TRAIN containing only 3 placarded Class 3 flammable liquids cars," she tweeted. "This means even if the rule had gone into effect, this train wouldn't have had ECP brakes."

The unofficial transcript of a CNBC interview with NS CEO Alan Shaw yesterday:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/21/first-o ... today.html

Fair Use:

MORGAN BRENNAN: I sat down with Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw for a first on CNBC interview. We began the discussion by asking him about the cause of the crash and the video that has circulated showing wheels shooting off sparks 20 miles away from the actual site of the derailment and specifically why the train system didn’t send an alert. Take a listen.

ALAN SHAW: I’m I’m really prohibited from talking about this—

BRENNAN: Okay.

SHAW: While it’s under NTSB investigation. We’re fully cooperating with the NTSB and the FRA. We’re gonna get to the root cause of this. And if changes need to be made, we’ll implement those changes.