• Delaware and Raritan River Railroad-General Discussion

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

  by Redfish
 
Back in the early to mid 90's the WPSA-35 would make 2 round trips per week on the Southern, often with 30 cars. Monday/Tuesday and Thursday/Friday. In Shrewsbury, Standard Roofing would get a car occasionally. They had an unloading dock that was closest to the main, and Asbury Park Press rented space on that same siding at the bumping post and get up to 2 cars of newsprint. In the Collingswood area there was Earle, 84 Lumber, which very rarely got a car, and the plastics plant, some french sounding company name. They got loads of resin in and shipped out loaded plastic pellets. Farmingdale had Gold Lumber on the Freehold Secondary and a place called Compounders on the Southern, I'm pretty sure they got tank cars of tar. In Howell, there was a Weyerhauser Distribution Center and Clover Department Stores had a warehouse that occasionally got a boxcar or two. In Lakewood the team track had 3 customers. Woodhaven, prior to them opening their current location, Diener Brick would get a car or two, and I can't remember the third customer, but they got flat cars of telephone poles or pier pilings. In South Lakewood there was a building products company near Woodhaven's current location that got centerbeam flats of drywall. Then on the Toms River Industrial, there was Ace Gas with propane tank cars and Builder's General.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm Looking at it from a "maybe what if" point of view, several possible customers exist on the FIT. Nestle/Nescafe and Clayton right in Freehold,
Looking at Google maps, it appears that you can estimate where Nestle used to have trains come in. https://imgur.com/a/Qtb54eC
In 1979, the tracks still were there. Today, the spot where the trains used to come in is still there, albeit you would have to move some of the many trailers they store there off of the ROW, highlighted in yellow in both pictures.

As for Clayton in Freehold, I doubt they would get any service - per this picture, it seems like they are just a parking area for the cement trucks: https://imgur.com/a/cFJMCvE

The scrap metal place next door to it, however, I could see getting some sort of service. I am not sure if they would get a siding into their facility, since they would have to put a crossing in on that street (which would involve a lot of logistical effort between DRRR, Beacon Scrap Metal, and the county/town government), but, if they got a siding parallel to Builders' General's siding (the hypothetical siding being in yellow), I think it would be very possible that they would just cross the street to load up/empty railcars.
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm the paper recycling facility that used to be the glass factory (siding still there but switch removed),
Per Google maps, the old glass factory does not have a siding on its property. https://imgur.com/a/FMwO6S2
I also believe it is not mainly a paper recycling facility, it's owned by a company called Iron Mountain, which focuses more on IT/datastore stuff. They do shred paper as part of their services, but I don't think the amount they shred would justify getting it delivered by rail - I have never heard of paper waste being shipped by rail, come to think of it.
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm the old Asbury Park Press building, and Stavola and L&L in Howell.
Where is the old Asbury Park Press building? The only one I am familiar with is the one that used to be in Tinton Falls/Neptune on 66 by the Outlets, and that has been long gone.

Stavola and L&L are pretty good contenders for potential rail service, but that won't happen until the tracks are fixed up until where they currently sit.
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm An upturn in business and improved rail service just might pan out someday. A big "if" for sure, but nice to dream.
I think improved and more frequent rail service will come, but not for a while. The FIT and SOUS need a lot of work, and the FIT-SOUS reconnection has not been started yet. I give it 3-5 years before we see things in full swing. Hopefully less than that, though.
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm While I'm still in dream mode, on the Southern, Clayton in Jackson
Is it that giant quarry in Jackson? Its address being Cranberry Bog, Jackson Township, NJ 08527?
Doesn't look like they are doing a whole lot there these days. The quarry no longer has tracks, but the ROW of the siding is still there. https://imgur.com/a/zVP8HZ9

I could see them getting rail service again, but putting that siding in again would be VERY expensive, with how long it was from the mainline
GSC wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:37 pm and the old Standard Roofing in Tinton Falls both still have sidings, with switches removed, with Stavola right next to the ROW.
I believe Standard Roofing is now called Ewing Irrigation & Landscape Supply. https://imgur.com/a/LcrvPli
The siding is still very much in tact, but no switch. The business looks like it deals with enough freight that using the railroad could be beneficial. The siding, one you into the property, looks like its pretty dense with vegetation, however.

Not sure why Stavola doesn't get rail shipments, I'd imagine the 263K weight limit on the Coastline doesn't allow for much aggregate materials to be brought in, combined with CR not being a huge fan of traversing the Coastline for that long multiple times a week. Also doesn't help the sand pits in Ocean County don't have direct rail access to the national network at this time.

I'm sure once FIT-SOUS is reconnected, and DRRR can offer carloads of 286K and even daily service, you will see a lot of old (and new) customers come back.
  by Bracdude181
 
Five cars for Woodhaven tomorrow.

Stavola has apparently looked into getting rail service but appears to be waiting until Farmingdale to Freehold is done.

The paper recycling place, Iron Mountain, wants service but for some reason the township won’t let them put the track back in.

The roofing place in Tinton Falls is ABC Building Supllies. Right now, they buy most of if not all their materials from Woodhaven. Occasionally a boxcar full of roofing supplies comes in just for them. The place in Tinton Falls also appears to mainly be a truck maintenance facility for them at the moment.

APP transloads all their paper from International Paper in Spotswood, on the Conrail Amboy Secondary. They used to deal with Conrail out of Neptune Yard on the North Jersey Coast Line. They moved to Freehold after NJT booted the freight around I wanna say 1988? They wanted rail service at their place in Freehold but that fell through. I can only see them dealing with C&D if it’s cheaper to get their paper directly from them instead of just sending a truck to International Paper as needed. This is also without taking side track construction costs into account.

Not sure about Clayton in Freehold but Clayton in Lakewood wanted rail service from what I hear. They’d get cars from Woodmansie directly. Clayton in Jackson is a tough one. Your talking completely rebuilding the Glidden Spur. That’s a multi million dollar project.

Not sure about L&L or Nestle, mainly cause of the land dispute thing I brought up around 2 weeks ago. As for Nestle, on the Freehold Secondary Mystery topic there’s a story on why Nestle stopped getting cars in the first place and right now they seem content with getting all their stuff in and out via intermodal containers. Interestingly, there’s a lot of NS trailers in there.

Beacon Scrap in Freehold? Only real way for them to get service is to use the team track across the street. Right now the team track is barely useable and can only fit one car at a time for unloading. Aside from that I don’t know if they have interest in getting service either. Especially if they are just trucking their heavy steel to CMC in Old Bridge. A lot of people in the area do that now except for John Blewett in Howell. He pays SIMS metals to truck all his outbound loads to Morrisville PA where they are then loaded into railcars.
  by GSC
 
I think I was a little off about Clayton in Jackson. They have a location, I guess it's Lakewood, that has remnants of a siding, seeing it on Google Maps. The Iron Mountain siding ROW still exists under the trees. I'm surprised the town says no to putting it back in. With all the new warehouses springing up especially in Howell, I can see a transloading facility where Gold Lumber used to be. I've heard the property is in Howell, and not Farmingdale, so that opens up the possibility that it could happen. I can still dream, but I'll just watch and see what happens on the FIT, TRIT, and Southern.
  by Bracdude181
 
I’d have to go back and look at the zoning maps when I have the time. Gold Lumber is right up against the border, and I don’t remember exactly what side it’s on.

I’ve heard that the guy who owns the property there doesn’t want it being used. I wouldn’t understand why. It would be okay for a small transload operation.
  by JohnFromJersey
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm Stavola has apparently looked into getting rail service but appears to be waiting until Farmingdale to Freehold is done.
Really? I would think they would be more waiting for Lakewood-Lakehurst to be completed. But then again, I doubt NJT would even let empty sand hoppers onto the Coastline south of South Amboy...
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm The paper recycling place, Iron Mountain, wants service but for some reason the township won’t let them put the track back in.
Really? I did not think they would want service. What would they use it for?
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm The roofing place in Tinton Falls is ABC Building Supllies. Right now, they buy most of if not all their materials from Woodhaven. Occasionally a boxcar full of roofing supplies comes in just for them. The place in Tinton Falls also appears to mainly be a truck maintenance facility for them at the moment.
Must have picked the wrong business then, or Google maps was wrong. Do you have an address for the ABC Building Supplies?
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm APP transloads all their paper from International Paper in Spotswood, on the Conrail Amboy Secondary. They used to deal with Conrail out of Neptune Yard on the North Jersey Coast Line. They moved to Freehold after NJT booted the freight around I wanna say 1988? They wanted rail service at their place in Freehold but that fell through. I can only see them dealing with C&D if it’s cheaper to get their paper directly from them instead of just sending a truck to International Paper as needed. This is also without taking side track construction costs into account.
Yeah that seems like a no.
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm Not sure about Clayton in Freehold but Clayton in Lakewood wanted rail service from what I hear. They’d get cars from Woodmansie directly. Clayton in Jackson is a tough one. Your talking completely rebuilding the Glidden Spur. That’s a multi million dollar project.
Clayton in Freehold seems to be a truck servicing area. Clayton in Lakewood is probably likely, normally I'd say using rail for that short of a distance is pretty crazy, but Clayton does own Lakehurst-Woodmansie and has a contract with NJSL, so they better use it for something eventually.

That's what that giant quarry in Jackson is/was???? Does Clayton own it now, and can it even be used anymore??? I heard Glidden went out of business in the 90's due to the fact that they ran out of the specific sand to mine.
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm Not sure about L&L or Nestle, mainly cause of the land dispute thing I brought up around 2 weeks ago. As for Nestle, on the Freehold Secondary Mystery topic there’s a story on why Nestle stopped getting cars in the first place and right now they seem content with getting all their stuff in and out via intermodal containers. Interestingly, there’s a lot of NS trailers in there.
Do you have a link to the particular post about Nestle? I remember way back in 2016, there was a gentleman who claimed to be the CR supervisor who signed off on Nestle ceasing rail service and taking the switch out.

I'd imagine they would clear up a lot of space on their property if they received those containers by rail.
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:02 pm Beacon Scrap in Freehold? Only real way for them to get service is to use the team track across the street. Right now the team track is barely useable and can only fit one car at a time for unloading. Aside from that I don’t know if they have interest in getting service either. Especially if they are just trucking their heavy steel to CMC in Old Bridge. A lot of people in the area do that now except for John Blewett in Howell. He pays SIMS metals to truck all his outbound loads to Morrisville PA where they are then loaded into railcars.
I mean, if Brick Recycling, a similar operation in both type and size, and distance from CMC, to Beacon Scrap, is still interested in getting rail service at some point, I don't see why not for Beacon.
Bracdude181 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 pm I’ve heard that the guy who owns the property there doesn’t want it being used. I wouldn’t understand why. It would be okay for a small transload operation.
Yes, that guy is not known for being a good landlord. I believe he is part of a very wealthy family that owns one or two NFL teams - I'd have to double-check. In either case, he has a habit of holding onto decrepit/vacant properties, refuses to lease them out to modest but stable tenants, because he hopes something good will come around - with all the development coming in Howell, I hear he is hoping a developer offers him big bucks for the property. A transloading operation will not offer that.
  by CharlieL
 
I distinctly remember, back in the early 80's, gondolas for scrap parked across Throckmorton street from Beacon recycling. I also remember the guy (a member here at the time) who worked for Nestle telling us about no longer using the spur.

As to APP printing, I'm not sure they still print there. The sale of printed newspapers has dropped precipitously in the last 20 years.

Iron Mountain does not look like it gets much, if any, truck traffic.
  by Bracdude181
 
From the FIT Secondary Mystery page:

“I think I am uniquely qualified to answer your question John, I worked for Nestle for 20 years. Nestle had a long double siding against the building in the back of the plant for rail shipments. At one time, up to six railcars of instant coffee a day were shipped, and, green coffee beans were delivered as well. As a warehouse worker when I first started there in my early twenties, I loaded finished goods (instant coffee) and unloaded green beans ( 1000 150# bags per railcar, mostly new Raritan River boxcars in the seventies). I had a great opportunity to see the RS 11 Penn Central units come in the plant every day, and the engine crew would allow me on board while switching cars. We used to give the crew two cases of Tasters Choice every Xmas. The engineer for Penn Central was very friendly and always wanted us to give him empty burlap bags that he could take deep sea fishing, which we (myself and another railfan named Dennis K.) always did. Because of our relationship with the engineer, if the train was late after work hours, we would always go and board the engine and ride with him while Brockway Glass was switched with loaded covered hoppers of sand, and, on one occasion, enjoyed a cab ride back through downtown Freehold to the yard on Throckmorton St. near Builders Square.

Fast forward to the mid to late eighties, I am now the salaried Division Mgr. for all warehouse operations, by now rail had diminished to nothing due to corporate strategies shifting to trucking. As a result, Conrail notified me that we would have to pay a monthly "switch maintenance fee" of $ 1,200.00 or the switch would be removed. Based on our decision, I had the sad distinction of signing the paperwork confirming the decision to remove the switch from Nestle in 1989.

At one time Nestle saw the railroad as a free warehouse and did not see finished product as time sensitive, this all changed in the 1980's. The corporate folks I worked with despised the railroad and didn't want to do business with them at all. Two things I remember that stand out : Nestle had a strike in 1974 and some workers tried to lay down on the track leading to the plant to stop incoming shipments of green coffee. The engineer told Nestle he would not cross a picket line, and two Penn Central white shirts came to the plant, told the engineer to get out of the engine, blew the horn and came right into the plant without hesitating, as the guys got up off the tracks in a hurry ! Another was how the engine could not get up the grade to the plant every year when tall weeds would get on the rails and the big RS 11 would sit there and spin all its wheels until the heavy sanding got traction, incredible to see a stationary engine all revved up not moving.

Without question, the most amazing experience was riding the engine during a "flying switch" where the engine with six to ten cars went east past the Brockway siding about half a mile and reversed and accelerated back towards town, while the brakeman on the ground set the switch for Brockway. Another brakeman on the engine upcoupled the moving cars from the engine which slowed down as the cars kept going and went into the Brockway siding. Once they were in there the brakeman threw the Brockway switch to the mainline allowing the engine to go past it on the mainline and stop. He then reopened the Brockway switch as the cars rolled by gravity back out onto the mainline picking up speed. After they passed the switch, it was set for the mainline and the engine sped up and chased the rolling cars, coupling to them and coming to a stop before heading west back to Browns yard. They did this routine on a daily basis, no splat or going through town in cars first back then. It was amazing to ride the engine during this effort, I asked the engineer if the cars had ever kept going and I remember he said " Hasn't happened yet".
  by CJPat
 
I just wanted to offer a couple of opinions on the above.

I would be very doubtful that any scrap yard operator, like Beacon, would ever use a loading siding that was on the other side of a fairly busy road. The liabilities would be tremendous. Not only would they risk automobile accidents every time a MHE tried to cross the road, but if they accidentally dropped any scrap (as small as nails or as large as a fender), they risk additional lawsuits from anyone who damages their car. Just not going to happen.

As far as transloading goes, it's a very hard facility to get anyone interested in using. I mentioned this on another thread, but anyone who even thinks about using it to unload flatcars would have to own an all terrain forklift and a truck with lowboy trailer to haul it with. Not something typically possessed by any company other than construction companies. Someone who unloads covered hoppers would need a screw conveyor and a dump truck or hopper truck. Boxcars would require an unloading dock and the customer would still need a lowboy and smaller forklift or a bit of labor to manhandle. None of this is considered common equipment.

Renting something everytime you want to offload becomes difficult to coordinate and expensive over time if you want to operate with any regularity. So transloading is hardly an answer unless you have so much inbound/outbound freight that someone could set up a receive/shipping facility that is manned full time with their own off-loading equipment. It does happen, but it is not easy. That's why you don't see trans-load sites set up all over the place. Finding the right customers with the necessary equipment and a location favorable to several tractor trailer units maneuvering around, and "neighborhods" that accept the noise and traffic is the challenge.
  by Bracdude181
 
“Transloading is hardly an answer unless you have so much inbound/outbound freight that someone could set up a receive/shipping facility that is manned full time with their own off-loading equipment. It does happen, but it is not easy. That's why you don't see trans-load sites set up all over the place.”

True, but many businesses in the Northern Ocean County area have wanted something like this for quite some time. They’re tired of going to and from Port Newark (where most go) to get their stuff because of all the congestion and fees up there. They want to be able to go somewhere close by and get their stuff with one or two trucks instead of going all the way up north with several trucks daily.

They weren’t gonna get something like this under Conrail but maybe C&D or someone else could do it? There are people in the Lakewood industrial park who CONSTANTLY get trucks in and out of their businesses. Church and Dwight comes to mind. They’ve wanted rail service or a way to directly deal with the nearby railroads for years now.
  by Bracdude181
 
Working at Woodhaven 11:00 AM

Might be under JB-1 today since I’ve heard that symbol at least 4 times already. Either that or there’s an extra in Freehold…
  by JohnFromJersey
 
CharlieL wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:40 am I distinctly remember, back in the early 80's, gondolas for scrap parked across Throckmorton street from Beacon recycling. I also remember the guy (a member here at the time) who worked for Nestle telling us about no longer using the spur.
@Bracdude181 re-posted the guy's message. Can't believe that was in response to a post I posted nearly 6 years ago! A damn shame they don't receive rail anymore. I hope DRRR can convince them otherwise.
CharlieL wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:40 am Iron Mountain does not look like it gets much, if any, truck traffic.
I don't see how they would get trains then. I wouldn't be shocked if the entire old factory is just a giant datacenter now.
CJPat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:58 am I would be very doubtful that any scrap yard operator, like Beacon, would ever use a loading siding that was on the other side of a fairly busy road. The liabilities would be tremendous. Not only would they risk automobile accidents every time a MHE tried to cross the road, but if they accidentally dropped any scrap (as small as nails or as large as a fender), they risk additional lawsuits from anyone who damages their car. Just not going to happen.
@CharlieL has stated that they did the exact operation in the 1980's. Things are definitely different now, but it's not like they haven't done it before. Did not know that road is rather busy, it looks rather narrow and not in very good condition. I've seen tons of heavy industrial operations just flag cars down when they had heavy equipment cross the road.

As for debris going onto the road, yeah, that's an issue, but I'm sure tons of small debris and whatnot gets out on the road with trucks coming in and out of there...
CJPat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:58 am As far as transloading goes, it's a very hard facility to get anyone interested in using. I mentioned this on another thread, but anyone who even thinks about using it to unload flatcars would have to own an all terrain forklift and a truck with lowboy trailer to haul it with. Not something typically possessed by any company other than construction companies. Someone who unloads covered hoppers would need a screw conveyor and a dump truck or hopper truck. Boxcars would require an unloading dock and the customer would still need a lowboy and smaller forklift or a bit of labor to manhandle. None of this is considered common equipment.
I think if DRRR were to try and establish a transloading operation, they would have to try and accommodate potential customers of it by considering the objections you brought up. DRRR would have to have forklifts and some staff to help customers load and unload railcars for this operation, and have differently sized loading docks that can accommodate differently sized trucks customers may bring to load and unload railcars.

Even if a customer has to rent this equipment, they would still most likely need some of that equipment to unload trucks anyway. Renting considered, it may be cheaper than trucks if a customer gets multiple railcars at a time to transload - I believe a single railcar is 3 equal to 3 trucks with drivers that need to come in.
CJPat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:58 am Renting something everytime you want to offload becomes difficult to coordinate and expensive over time if you want to operate with any regularity. So transloading is hardly an answer unless you have so much inbound/outbound freight that someone could set up a receive/shipping facility that is manned full time with their own off-loading equipment. It does happen, but it is not easy. That's why you don't see trans-load sites set up all over the place. Finding the right customers with the necessary equipment and a location favorable to several tractor trailer units maneuvering around, and "neighborhods" that accept the noise and traffic is the challenge.
I'd argue we don't see many transloading operations all over the place since A) most people who transload will do it off of other railroad customers' sidings, like Laird's does with Brick Recycling, and B) with intermodal containers, there's not much need for them. I think DRRR and many potential customers would be more interested in having a small facility/yard that can load and unload (single stack) containers for them.

I believe if they were to put this transloading/intermodal yard/facility in, it would be alongside the TRIT next to Rt 37 - a ton of trucks and traffic traverse that road as is, it's next to a literal highway and not in the middle of a residential neighborhood like the former Gold's Lumber site, and should be big enough for trucks and what not to come in and out.

If @Bracdude181 is right and there is some moderate interest in Ocean County for this transloading site by businesses there, something will be worked out
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