Railroad Forums 

  • Delair Bridge Contingency

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

 #52631  by Tom_E_Reynolds
 
Hi all,

In the "CR on the Southern Secondary" http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... &start=240 post, Urban D Kaye asked why the Hightstown section of the old PRR was cut, and it was discussed why it wasn't needed, as traffic doesn't move North-South over that section any more.

That begs the question: How safe is the Delair Bridge these days for getting freight into South Jersey? What is the contingency plan if it became unusable? (Railroad history is filled with bridge mishaps, just look what happened when the Poughkeepsie Bridge burned down and almost killed the LH&HR)

One could envision that it would be cheaper and quicker to reconnect the old C&A mainline to get freight to South Jersey then it would be to build a new bridge. Maybe even the Southern Secondary would get reconnected to.

SO the question I ask all of you is, if the Delair Bridge became unusable, how would it affect freight operations in South Jersey? What new routes would need to be built? How much would it cost to build a new bridge? Has any major RR built a similar bridge recently? Would alternate routes into South Jersey be more efficient?

All opinions are welcomed.

-TomR

 #52644  by JLo
 
No idea for about 90% of your post. Here are two potential options:

A twin span for the NJ-PA Turnpike extension is already in the planning phase. I don't see why it couldn't also be designed to include a rail component.

Similarly, there has been talk of a replacement for the Burlington-Bristol bridge. Same as above.

 #52672  by wis bang
 
The building in Hightstown & soon in East Windsor had obliterated the ROW.

The old grain storage silos across Rt 33 from the produce auction [East Windsor] was leveled and the site is being re-developed as office space.

Factor in all the new homes in Washington Twsp and the NIMBY factor will be too big too.

It's going to be impossible to renew the old PRR ROW unless you detour east of Hightstown right thru all the new homes in Monroe & Millstone...Or go West thru West Windsor...

Build a new Bridge or find a way off the NEC...

that's my $0.02 worth.

 #52684  by Irish Chieftain
 
The building in Hightstown & soon in East Windsor had obliterated the ROW
Amusing. There wouldn't be enough NIMBYism to resist a highway going through the area nowadays, I suspect. This would have been a good alternate for a lot of freight that currently uses the NEC. What a legacy for one of the first railroads in the country to use steam traction...

 #52709  by Notch 8
 
Freight could be detoured to to/from Camden by using the RiverLINE to Trenton. An operational nightmare to be sure but much more realistic than replacing or rebuilding abandoned ROW.

 #52916  by wis bang
 
Irish Chieftain wrote:
The building in Hightstown & soon in East Windsor had obliterated the ROW
Amusing. There wouldn't be enough NIMBYism to resist a highway going through the area nowadays, I suspect. This would have been a good alternate for a lot of freight that currently uses the NEC. What a legacy for one of the first railroads in the country to use steam traction...
It's a real shame to see the end of a historic RR; it was intact when I moved here in '83. Once the bridges in Hightstown & the one carring Rt 130 over the ROW were removed, everyone seemed to move onto the ROW. the town did save the old freight station moving it to a new spot behind a house that had the historical society. Suposed to build a layout of the area's "Transportation Heritage"...

They NIMBY's wold be those in the $750,000.00 homes just west of the ROW in Washington Twsp. Since the process equipment re-seller went bankrupt the remaining rails have disapeared under weeds except the spots where the home builders covered the ROW to make access for construction traffic. I'm sure they think the ROW is just some antiquity...

 #52933  by JLo
 
The biggest impediment for any reconnection would be the fact that Rt 133 now bisects the ROW completely. NJ DOT probably wouldn't be too keen on tearing up its new highway.

 #52945  by CRRNJ878
 
Back towards the Delair bridge...does anyone know exactly what restrictions are placed on the bridge, considering it's condition? What problems exist requiring these restrictions? thnks..

 #53246  by wis bang
 
JLo wrote:The biggest impediment for any reconnection would be the fact that Rt 133 now bisects the ROW completely. NJ DOT probably wouldn't be too keen on tearing up its new highway.
At least they palced a sign where they built over the ROW to commerate the Camden & Amboy...

 #53490  by kevikens
 
About a month ago I ran into some engineers who were doing repairs to the deteriorating support spans on the NJ side. I had noticed earlier that you could actually flake off pieces of corroded steel with your fingers. My father, a metallurgist for the SKF Ball Bearing plants in Phila. once told me that the old steel ( the bridge was built ca. 1895-96) often had a high sulphur content and other impurities that made it questionable for long term use. According to the engineers working on the bridge last month the deterioration was not that bad and not much had to be replaced though he told me there was a no more than four locomtives on the bridge at a time restriction.

 #53506  by chuchubob
 
kevikens wrote: ...he told me there was a no more than four locomotives on the bridge at a time restriction.
Within the last couple weeks there was a five locomotive set that went from Pavonia to Frankford in two sections; three went over, and the crew brought one backto take the other two over.

 #53625  by Notch 8
 
Actually in total weight, the restriction is five locomotives on the bridge at a time. In theory, four freight locomotives and one passenger locomotive is possible. However, no more than four coupled locomotives may operate over the bridge at a time. Coincidently, a passenger train with two locomotives may only cross at 10 mph and in this event no freight movement is permitted at the same time. The Delair Bridge is very closely monitored for defects. I do not think it is going to fail anytime soon. Remember that bridge is the lifeblood of it's owner - CR Shared Assets. The S Jersey district needs it to survive.

 #55119  by JJMDiMunno
 
CRRNJ878 wrote:Back towards the Delair bridge...does anyone know exactly what restrictions are placed on the bridge, considering it's condition? What problems exist requiring these restrictions? thnks..
OK, to go into more detail about the restrictions...

Between the southward approach viaduct and CP JERSEY, an engine consist of any type must not exceed 4 coupled units. Additional engines of any class must be spaced from any of the coupled four units by at least ten cars. When a freight train of 4 coupled engines are operating either over the Delair Bridge, or the approach viaduct, the following is prohibited on the adjacent track (Transit):

1. The movement of another freight train.
2. The movement of a passenger train with more than 2 coupled engines.
3. The movement of more than 2 coupled light engines.

Reguarding speed, there is also a 10MPH speed restriction constantly in effect for freight trains on the Delair Branch while occupying the span, and a 30MPH speed restriction constantly in effect for passenger trains occupying the lift span on the Atlantic City Line.

Why are these restrictions in effect? Well, simply put, the bridge is old. Not so old as if it's going to fall down any time soon however...structurally the bridge is sound, but placing these restrictions in effect helps to insure many more years of relatively trouble-free operation.

Now, alternatives should the bridge fail, manage to be destroyed, fall down, whatever: Temporarily, a solution could be designed utilizing the RiverLINE, though this would be a poor solution. They've only got about an 8 hour window to work with there for freight...trying to get a pair of road freights in and out of Camden, plus unit stone and coal trains, plus the locals that work the line each night all in that time just wouldn't work out. Might work for about a week or so, but after that there will be problems. First of all, the largest problem would be Pavonia. With all those trains flooding in there at once, they'd simply have no place to put them. Say you have a pair of 100 car road freights rolling in (CSX Q417, NS 38G), a 50-car unit stone train for Transmodal (NS 64Q), a 110 car coal train for Deepwater (NS 506), and a 75-car coal train for Palermo (CSX V779) all coming in at once. You've also got a northbound empty coal train off the Penns Grove coming with 100 empty hoppers. At the same time, you've got all these locals coming in from their various destinations or that came in earlier (CA-51, CA-11, MI-61, CA-20, etc). Add them all up, and you've got about 700 cars coming into the yard at all around the same time. What railroad employees call the result of all this is craziness. They'd have stuff lined up all over the place: trains sitting on both running tracks, probably another one out the south end of the yard, something holding on the Beesley's, something holding on the Penns Grove, something holding on the Vineland, and probably one or two that would just be stuck on the RiverLINE not able to move. Half of the local power in Pavonia would probably just fall over and die because it hasn't seen this much work at once in 20 years. Massive quantities of outlawing going on all over the place...the poor dispatchers on both Transit and Conrail will be pulling their hair out, the chief will be yelling at everyone and anyone he can see, hear, come into contact with or get on the telephone or radio, and whatever poor soul happens to be the yardmaster in Pavonia that first night will just give up and jump out the window of his office...

Yeah, that solution will work for about 5 minutes.

They'd need to repair or rebuild the Delair bridge...quickly. There is no other solution...we already discussed the RiverLINE, and chances of anyone wanting to restore the southern secondary through Winslow are slim to none. That would be a beautiful thing though, a half dozen trains rolling up and down the Beesley's per day...it would be just like the old days :) Ah, I'm dreaming now...

And that's all I've got to say about that...hope you all liked my little narrative about what would happen if they used the RiverLINE to handle that traffic...

Mike DiMunno

 #55301  by transit383
 
If Delair failed, that window of operations on the RiverLine would need to be widened. RiverLINE LRV's could run to 36th street from the Waterfront in Camden, but from there, the light rail service would not be able to run given the amount of freight traffic that would be using the line. A quick fix would be a connection to the ACL where the two lines cross. ACL trains could be diverted up the RiverLINE to Trenton. This would keep the ACL running and would satisfy the RiverLINE passengers between Cherry Hill and Trenton while freight traffic could use the tracks at the same time. Again, only a temporary fix until the Delair span is rebuilt.
 #66485  by pumpers
 
I was on the Riverline in trenton for first time this weekend,
and although I didn't look close, it may be that the direct connection
from the riverline (the old local freight track that runs along Route 129
in trenton) to the northeast corridor (going northbound, which was the only connection) is gone. Can anyone
confirm that?

If so, the only way to get from the riverline to north east corridor
(indeed the only rail existing rail connection from South Jersey to North Jersey, I suppose), would be
to continue north on the freight extension (of what to the south is now the River line) over the NEC ( past where the riverline twists off to go to its end just west of the trenton station)
on some industrial track in trenton along route 1 (I don't know the name), which eventually connects back onto the NEC a mile or so
north of trenton station. Not sure if it connects going northbound
or southbound on the NEC or both.

Who can confirm all this one way or the other?

This industrial track up along Route 1 (along with the river line)
I think is the original route of the Camden & Amboy
through trenton before the present northeast corridor (Trenton
to South Brusnwick portion) was built
in the 1860's. The industrial track in trenton looks pretty rough, but I crossed it near
its north end, up by
Mulberry St the other day and it looks like it still had some use -- not too rusty. Would this route from the River line to NEC still be viable?
Who knows?