Dark territory

what areas of the U.S. have themost dark territory and is it more stressful workingit it or in signalled territory?

BNSF seems to have the most dark mainline, with UP not far behind. Not really stressfull, as I enjoy being prepared to jump off the unit, approaching every switch, and rounding every curve. BN was not/is not the leader, in head-on and rear-end collisions, for nothing........ Doesn't everyone dream of jumping clear, of the impending wreck............

"Dark" territory in itself is nothing new. For many years, extensive operations were conducted in non-signalled manual block territory or under "Timetable / Train Order / No Block" rules.

What has changed is the level of expertise of the people in charge of these territories. Part of this is due to the elimination of local (divisional)train dispatching offices in favor of consolidated system-wide facilities, and part is due to the management-engineered changes (such as the creation of the "floating block") to the operating rules to speed up the operations without regard for safety.

As another example, many railroads used to carry a provision in their employee timetables that stated a reduced speed when approaching non-interlocked / non-electric locked facing-point hand-operated switches. You won't find that anywhere today.

Management has largely removed the fail-safe factor, and when you are working with people, there has to be some margin for error.

Is it stressful to operate today in Dark Territory. You bet it is!

Where I usually work its 203 miles of TWC or in laymens terms dark territory. Going north we run on the U.P.'s 30 mph (poor track severe lack of maintanence) CTC. Then its another 67 miles of track warrants to our crew change point and on the other side of that its ABS/TWC. A year and a half ago two of my friends/co-workers went into an open switch and rode it out at 40 m.p.h., they walked away but are still off with various back and neck injuries. Our south local was going for a quit and was in a hurry and forgot to line behind an industry switch. They fessed up to it but nobody can really prove it. Scary stuff. Alot of this stuff didnt happen until they added the box 20 to the track warrants which allows you to leave a main track switch in the reverse position. After they got rid of the Cabooses out here in 96 we pulled out of a siding, lined behind then got a 6.6 and picked up the Brakeman. The above accident shouldnt have happened as the box 20 doesnt allow you to leave industry track switches open but if they had a caboose they would have had to line the switch for the main to come back and make a joint on their crummy and run cab hop the rest of the way. Funny how the loss of a caboose can cost literally millions of dollars. Alot of people preach that but I have seen it happen first hand. In memory of the caboose

How can this "dark territory" even be an issue with GPS technology?

Does the RR industry utilize this for locating trains?

Because the technology of it hasnt been implemented to show the position of switches or track indications i.e. broken rails. Check out my post about our last derailment. The link should take you to the pics from our local paper. It happened 7/14 so you might have to go to the archives.

This subject matter is aimed specifically at railroaders. Where I work,
trains that run on signalled track are governed by signal indication for
block occupancy/authority. What I cannot understand is out west
the BNSF and the UP (old SP lines) use a combination of signals with
track warrant control.
My beef is why do you have a signal system but still need a track warrant
for operating authority? Isn't that what the signal system was designed for in the first place? It seems a waste to basically nullify the intended
use of a signal system with a track warrant. If the carrier prefers
using a TWC for authority, then why waste money to maintain the
signal system, or vice versa why waste time issuing track warrants
when the signal system can accomplish that task automatically?
Furthermore, from a engineer's standpoint, using both systems
together amounts to something of a trap. You may see a clear signal
on a piece of track but cannot occupy that block without that TWC
authority. On the flip side you may have authority between two
points but may face a stop signal smack in the middle!
Of course there are those that may argue with me the merits
of the use of these systems together, but I think it is a complete
waste and trap for those who operate under such conditions.

You must be thinking of ABS/TWC . Yes the signals will give track indications etc. But without the track warrant how are the meets between trains going to be made? In ABS obviosly the disp has no control of the signals. The railroad "wastes'' money on them because those signals tell us of open switches, broken rails, slide fence indications etc. The territory out of Wishram WA where I have worked is ABS/TWC and those signals save lives. Going to Bend OR its 85 miles next to the river and in the winter time when the rocks start coming down when it gets wet those signals let us know the slide fence has been broken and there is an obstruction. When I catch a red block in the middle of nowhere on the Oregon Trunk Sub it very well could mean the track is blocked with hundred of yards of rocks. Then its restricted speed, and I mean restricted speed. Theres hardly a straight piece of railroad on that sub. People who work in CTC all the time have no clue. ABS has never been a system to convey authority, before track warrants they used train orders to convey authority. The signals are to indicate occupancy of the track ahead, whether it be another train ahead or an open switch etc.

GN...that's the big rule that confuses a lot of people, ABS only gives you protection, it doesn't convey authority. I work for UP out of Portland and often pass OT junction wondering about working that sub down to Bend. All the old heads say that the TWC is tricky but it's a really nice ride and there's lots of good..ahem..scenery in the summertime sunbathing on the river.

He he he, oh yeah the sunbathing is nice! A simple toot on the whistle and the scenery gets real nice!

GN 599 wrote:You must be thinking of ABS/TWC . Yes the signals will give track indications etc. But without the track warrant how are the meets between trains going to be made? In ABS obviosly the disp has no control of the signals. The railroad "wastes'' money on them because those signals tell us of open switches, broken rails, slide fence indications etc. The territory out of Wishram WA where I have worked is ABS/TWC and those signals save lives. Going to Bend OR its 85 miles next to the river and in the winter time when the rocks start coming down when it gets wet those signals let us know the slide fence has been broken and there is an obstruction. When I catch a red block in the middle of nowhere on the Oregon Trunk Sub it very well could mean the track is blocked with hundred of yards of rocks. Then its restricted speed, and I mean restricted speed. Theres hardly a straight piece of railroad on that sub. People who work in CTC all the time have no clue. ABS has never been a system to convey authority, before track warrants they used train orders to convey authority. The signals are to indicate occupancy of the track ahead, whether it be another train ahead or an open switch etc.

He he he, oh yeah the sunbathing is nice! A simple toot on the whistle and the scenery gets real nice!

Well said GN599, and up here in Canada the scenary is quite different.....we get 'mooned'.

D'oh!

Slightly "off topic", but possibly interesting, nonetheless, I will be transfering to Oregon, at the end of next week. Gonna see the left coast, and do some running out there. Possibly between Salem, and Portland, although could be anywhere, on that railroad, and it's 548 miles of trackage................ Might just run into some of youse guys, while I'm there. Regards

So you work for a G&W property?? Maybe I can take you to Prineville and you can re-unite with their ex- LV crummy.

I sent you a pm golden arm. Let me know if you get it.