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  • Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad

  • General discussion related to all railroad clubs, museums, tourist and scenic lines. Generally this covers museums with static displays, museums that operate excursions, scenic lines that have museums, and so on. Check out the Tourist Railway Association (TRAIN) for more information.
General discussion related to all railroad clubs, museums, tourist and scenic lines. Generally this covers museums with static displays, museums that operate excursions, scenic lines that have museums, and so on. Check out the Tourist Railway Association (TRAIN) for more information.

Moderators: rob216, Miketherailfan

 #450496  by bob
 
The C&TSRR is again at the end of a very shaky season. An estimated 32,000 riders. The so-called management groupis claiming that is the best season yet, what a bunch of B.S. Has anyone seen the trackwork? Rotten ties purchased from the U.P., cut off to size from the narrow gauge track, turned up side down and installed. (If they had bought new ties-those would last about 40 years under the current loading-but with the bad ones installed, they will probably have to be replaced in about 5 or 6 years). The State of Colorado gave the railroad $3,000,000 specficially for track work--and most of it was wasted.
And the so-called "Friends of the Railroad" complain that the states "betrayed" them when, during the two states legislative sessions, reduced the amount of monies given to the railroad. And in the 2008 legistative sessions-I'm hearing cuts of 50 to 60 percent from this years cuts!
We need new people who know how to operate a railroad in there!
 #454339  by bob
 
The so-called "Friends" of the Railroad are calling on their members to start a letter writing campaign to ask the State of Colorado for $600,000 "
for "emergency funding"! The Governor of Colorado has already said no, they can wait till the legislature does the regular funding revue.
Yet the website of the "Friends" claims that the railroad saw an increase of 7% overall, with revenue up 13.5%, with parlor car passengers up 22%. (Rough guess figures shows that is about $1,200,000)
How interesting!
What are they doing with all of that revenue that has supposedly increased? They sure aren't spending it on the railroad. That was paid for by the State of Colorado last year, and had the gall to have a member post on a discussion forum propaganda pictures of the "track work".
Sure, they did a lot of track---took all the rotten ties, turned them up-side-down, cut off 2 1/2 Feet, and inserted them into the mud, then covered up everything with rock.

 #455127  by NDHolmes
 
I think you need to check your facts again - much of what you've stated is either blatantly wrong, or at the least, unsubstantiated by the evidence at hand. It's a disservice to all that have invested a lot of hard work in saving this national treasure over the last two seasons.

Seeing that many here aren't as familiar with the C&TS, I thought I'd clear up a few things, or at least provide a counter-point with some facts and photographic evidence of the amazingly good things that have been happening on the C&TS in the last couple years.

Ridership for 2006 was 39,586. As of the 8-Oct-2007 commission meeting, they were reporting ridership was up 7% overall (as you state), which would mean an expected ridership of ~42,300 for the 2007 season, or about 31% greater than your number. To substantiate these numbers, see the following:
Final 2006 ridership numbers from Durango Herald story
October 8, 2007 Commission Meeting notes

The "new" ties are hardly rotten. They were pulled out from under the UP (ex-DRGW) mainline in western Colorado when UP did a concrete tie replacement project. They're still extremely serviceable, and have a lot of life left in them - particularly considering that they're now holding up narrow gauge trains with an axle loading of around 35,000 lbs, rather than 120 car coal drags with 72,000 lbs axle loadings. They have a newly acquired little narrow gauge tamper that lifts and helps align the refurbished track. When you combine that with the fact they've dumped nearly 25,000 tons of ballast, they're hardly putting these ties in the mud.

Did you see the ties (many of classic D&RGW vintage) that were being pulled out from under the C&TS for replacement? Many of them didn't make it out in one piece, or were already broken and hollow on the inside. Tie replacement was desperately needed, and these folks did it.

The only picture I have of some of the replacement ties, these sitting in Antonito last winter - it's a crop of a distant shot, but should be adequate so show that they're in decent shape:
Image

And the tamper, used to lift and align the track in the new ballast - if this shiny, newly refurbished machine isn't an investment in long term track quality, I don't know what is.
Image

Clearly trackwork isn't free, and so far in the last two years, they've put in 21,000 ties, dumped 25,000 tons of ballast (which was all crushed granite that was trucked in, as there are no on-line quarries of suitable quality), and surfaced 2/3s of the 64 mile route. $3 million to do all that seems like a bargain to me - if they wasted that $3 mil, then where did the money for trackwork come from?

As evidence of the fine work these folks have done on the C&TS track, I offer two views of the track near Tanglefoot, one from 2006, and one from this year. I also offer up the fact that running times have improved this year. On time performance is also better, at least from the several times I've been there to witness it. No more hour or two hour late trains. From personal observation as a passenger, I can attest that the ride is significantly smoother as well.

Tanglefoot Curve in 2006:
Image

Tanglefoot Curve after trackwork in 2007:
Image

As far as the money issues, letter writing campaigns and such are nothing unusual. The C&TS has never been self-sufficient (hence the reason the D&RGW tried to abandon it) - it's an operating museum and engine of economic development owned jointly by the two states. Certainly self-sufficiency would not be expected in a year where they're trying to finish restoring a fourth steam locomotive, rebuild their only diesel, and catch up on some thirty years of minimal and deferred maintenance on the track, in addition to the usual winter expenses of developing and executing a marketing campaign for the upcoming season. Like most historical preservation and economic development projects, politicians are only interested if their constituents make their interest known. Hence the letter-writing campaign - to let our government know that this is a priority for a vocal and engaged part of their constituency.

Nathan
 #455128  by 3rdrail
 
bob wrote:We need new people who know how to operate a railroad in there!
I sense an agenda going on here, what about you ? :(
 #455626  by bob
 
Is there an agenda here--yes. 2007 saw the state of New Mexico gave the C&TS 2.86 Million Dollars plus the State of Colorado gave 3 Million--2008 will see 1.54 Million from N.M., $180,000 from Colorado. Rumors have it that N.M. will further reduce their payment to about $800,000--Colorado about $80,000 to $100,000. Does the two state governments know something--you can bet the house they do!

Did you notice the photo of the ties?
Standard gauge ties cut down to narrow gauge--did you notice the ends that are bare of any treatment? Water goes into already rotting ties--and speeds up the process.
With the amount of snow and water that the C&TSRR sees each year--six too eight years and they will need to be replaced--again.
These ties were rejected by a national home hardware company for the very reason and the "operators" of the C&TSRR paid about 2 1/2 times what the hardware company offered to the U.P.
With the "Friends" of the railroad-NOT! being the operators of the railroad, they urged their members to write the Governor of Colorado for $600,000 in "emergency funding"---according to an aide of Governor Ritter, thye haven't received any letters! Wow! A very involved membership.
 #455719  by 3rdrail
 
bob wrote:Is there an agenda here--yes.
Did you notice the photo of the ties?
Standard gauge ties cut down to narrow gauge--did you notice the ends that are bare of any treatment? Water goes into already rotting ties--and speeds up the process.
What I saw were stacks of un - installed ties tied up in bundles. Also noticed in NDHolmes' last photo that the installed tie ends appear from a distance to be suitably blackened, suggesting a complete application of creosote. How about your photo of a set under rail ? Oh, too covered with ballast ? If so, with permission, bring a child's plastic shovel (the kind that goes with a beach pail ?) and move a couple of stones so that you can show us that it's unsuitably prepared.
 #458158  by bob
 
Yes we did exactly what you wished--we still saw installed ties WITHOUT any end coating on the sawed end! Seven different places along the right-of-way, enough said. Come to the JBC hearings in about March in Denver and say what you said on this post--you will be called a liar by several aides.

 #458194  by 3rdrail
 
Well, let's see your photos of these installed tie ends...otherwise, I'll be inclined to believe that the liar is not me. :-D (And by the way, what specifically is it that I am alledgedly lying about ?)
 #458361  by rob216
 
bob wrote:Yes we did exactly what you wished--we still saw installed ties WITHOUT any end coating on the sawed end! Seven different places along the right-of-way, enough said. Come to the JBC hearings in about March in Denver and say what you said on this post--you will be called a liar by several aides.

Why where they installed with no end coating? Don't think think that you would have put tar or some other protecting coating on them so they won't rot away. I would think that would be common sense, but its hard to say in this day and age if people do have common sense.

 #458596  by AmtrakRider
 
I had the pleasure of being one of the 42,000+ passengers on the C&TR this summer. I'm going to look back at my pictures (I took literally 100s or 1000s of them) for any showing the track work. I do know they spoke about having done quite a bit of work on the tracks.

Also the train I was on was about 70% occupied.

If I come across any illustrative photos I will post them.

 #458602  by AmtrakRider
 
Image

This picture was taken on Aug. 8 2007. I don't know if these ties would be considered "unprotected" . . . .

Image

This is a different stack of ties, same morning.

 #458611  by AmtrakRider
 
Image

This is beside the Lava Tank. In the foreground you can see some of the ties that have been removed. In many places it was also obvious that the gravel was newly distributed.

 #458623  by 3rdrail
 
Where's your photos, Bob ?

 #458932  by AmtrakRider
 
BTW, Paul, I saw lots of additional evidence of replaced ties, many in worse condition than the ones pictured above. Even IF the replacement ties will last only 5 years, it's definitely better to get a smoother safer ride in the meanwhile.

I hope this railway sticks around for a while. It's not as well known as Durango's little bit of NG, but the scenery is spectacular.
 #459638  by Van
 
:( Bob pops up every now and then over at the NGDF. His personal agenda is to shut down the Cumbres and Toltec Railroad. Why? No one really knows. He was rebuffed by one of the railroad commissions in the past and has been on a crusade against the railroad ever since. Maybe they saw through him or maybe someone clued them in, probably never know for sure.