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  • Cross Harbor Tunnel (PATH / NYCT/Freight) Staten Island - Brooklyn

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

 #389490  by ncvab
 
Hours After Testifying, Bricks Shatter Activist’s Store Window
Queens Chronicle
June 10, 2004

Hours after testifying against the construction of the Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel at a contentious public hearing, four bricks were thrown through the window of a prominent Maspeth activist’s flower shop.

The vandalism occurred at about 1:40 a.m. on Tuesday morning at Enchanted Florist and Greenhouse on Grand Avenue. The shop is owned and operated by Tony Nunziato, a well-known figure in the western Queen community, who serves on Community Board 5 and Maspeth Town Hall.

He said the bricks shattered his front windows, setting off the store’s alarm and sending a signal to the police. The vandals escaped before authorities could arrive and no arrests have yet been made.


Officials at the 104th Precinct did not return calls for comment about the investigation.


Nunziato, along with more than half a dozen community and business activists, testified on Monday at LaGuardia Community College in Long Island City about the tunnel’s potentially destructive impact on Maspeth.


The project’s supporters included, among others, dozens of union construction workers, some of whom booed vociferously when the Maspeth residents spoke. Nunziato, though, refused to speculate whether his testimony may have sparked retribution.


“I can’t make any assumptions,” Nunziato said as he awaited the delivery of several new window panes on Tuesday. “I believe in working with unions so I wouldn’t want to smear anyone.”


Nunziato, whose politically connected family—his cousin is City Councilman Eric Gioia—also owns Nunziato Florist on Roosevelt Avenue in Woodside, said this was the first act of vandalism on his Maspeth business in at least 15 years.


But, despite the property damage, Nunziato said he will not be intimidated into not speaking out against a project which he considers lethal to his neighborhood.


“Nothing really scares me anymore,” he said.

©Queens Chronicle - Mid Edition 2004

 #389716  by Frank
 
The Cross Harbor tunnel is a must. Alot of politicians in the area support it and opposition is minimal. No matter what anybody says, it would be very beneficial to New York and Long Island. :-)

 #389912  by Nova55
 
I hope your being sarcastic.

 #389919  by JoeG
 
What if they built it and nobody used it? That isn't an unlikely outcome.

 #389921  by Frank
 
Nova55 wrote:I hope your being sarcastic.
No I'm just speaking my mind. :-)

 #389935  by 35dtmrs92
 
What if they built it and nobody used it? That isn't an unlikely outcome.
Have you been on the GWB lately? Now, I know, we live in Jersey, but something major like this would not even be debated or have its own website if there was not a strong demand for its construction. The political process is not that convoluted.

 #389980  by DutchRailnut
 
Just because you built a rail tunnel does not mean any trucks would transfer to rail, here are few counter points to tunnel:

90% of all truck customers are not near any railroad.

Trucks deliver faster than railroads, ever try to move a railcar from shipper to reciever for only 100 miles ?? a truck does that in 2 hours door to door, a railroad does it in at least 24 hours if your lucky.

Not all freight comes in via New Jersey, most comes in over Hellgate by P&W and CSX and D&H(cp rail)

currently the float operations have spare capacity but nobody is using it ??? Why ??

 #389985  by JoeG
 
I haven't seen a big clamor for this tunnel from shippers or railroads. I guess that means they don't see a big benefit. Right now, there are large intermodal terminals on the west side of the Hudson where ships and trains can have their containers unloaded and put on trucks. If we had a tunnel to Brooklyn, where would railroad cars go? Would the result be that we unloaded the train in Brooklyn or Queens instead of NJ? Would there be a payoff there? If a substantial business developed in freight to New England, that would be worthwhile, but I'm skeptical about these prospects. If there were a big carfloat business in New York Harbor, I'd be more optimistic that a tunnel would have a payoff, but there is very little carfloat business.

 #390000  by DutchRailnut
 
Any freight traveling from NJ to New England would be severly handycapped due to catenary wire height and the restrictions on even the most common freight cars.
Containers could only be moved in single level cars, TOFC is not gone work with todays trailers, even a centerbeam lumber car grounds the wires when unloaded unless moved at very slow speeds.

There is a reason why CSX or P&W are not moving freight on New Haven line other than stone and a few local customers.

For those people that believe in tunnel miracles just look at how long it takes P&W to move a stone train from Durham Ct to Prima Asphalt.
nobody would ship freight that way other than this stone that would take forever to move by truck.
A 40 car stone train equals 120 to 150 18 wheel Dump trucks.
But who in his right mind would move general freight by rail these days.

 #390069  by Nova55
 
DutchRailnut wrote:Just because you built a rail tunnel does not mean any trucks would transfer to rail, here are few counter points to tunnel:

90% of all truck customers are not near any railroad.

Trucks deliver faster than railroads, ever try to move a railcar from shipper to reciever for only 100 miles ?? a truck does that in 2 hours door to door, a railroad does it in at least 24 hours if your lucky.

Not all freight comes in via New Jersey, most comes in over Hellgate by P&W and CSX and D&H(cp rail)

currently the float operations have spare capacity but nobody is using it ??? Why ??

Dutch has a good point, and I think this may change for the better in the years to come. As noted on NYNJs website ( former NYCH ) they just got alot of money, and finally did new track work in Greenville and selected areas and have a plan set forth for once. This new owner seems to be cleaning house and making the RR presentable and profitable again. They still have customers in Brooklyn, as well as the daily interchange with NYA.

But hey, what do I know.

 #390083  by JoeG
 
The question is, how much car float business is there? Supposed it greatly increased? Would it justify a tunnel that would cost several billion dollars? If it cost $5 billion, the interest cost at 5% would be $250 million a year--and that doesn't include maintenance, etc. Also, I assume the tunnel would use electric engines, so the trains would have to have an engine change. But, it's been many years since an electric freight engine has been manufactured here. How much would the R&D for a new one cost, especially since there would not exactly be an order of hundreds? (Could they make a several-mile-long underwater tunnel in which diesels could be run? Would that require a ventilation system that would add plenty to the cost?)

Jerry Nadler likes trains but he isn't being realistic.

 #390201  by Jeff Smith
 
Part of the reason this is getting pushed is pure pork. The excuse for the pork I believe is: wasn't this the original reason for the Port Authority?

I don't think this tunnel is necessary either, there are far more pressing infrastucture needs. No one pushed for the restoration of West Side freight, and now the line below Penn is being turned into a park. And where is the capacity on LI or New England for freight? Most of the lines are busy with passenger service, when would they find slots?

The capacity a tunnel would bring would be wasted on LI and the NE. Freight destined for NE is doing fine via upstate, for LI and NYC, fine either via NJ or Hells Gate or float, and along the shorelines as well.

 #390401  by Frank
 
It is not pure pork. Like I said: It would very beneficial NYC area. It would reduce truck traffic going over the GWB and would help reduce pollution as well. The freight would go to to an intermodal terminal and would be hauled by truck to its final destination.
 #390408  by henry6
 
What has to be studied is the cost efffectivness of a tunnel now and 50 years from now. Right now it appears that rail traffic for LI is handled easily by Cross Harbor and whatever comes into Fresh Pond Jct. off the Hell Gate bridge. The LIRR got out of the freight business in a big way a very long time ago and today's NY&A is slowly building it up again. When, what and where, the demand consititutes a break even or cost effective threshold will be the determnining factor. As pork, it is poor; as a current need, not really; as a plan for the future, it must be feasible in many ways. Long Islanders will also have to be the people who finally say they want and need it, too.

 #391339  by Jayjay1213
 
The tunnel idea is silly. Frank, can you provide any numbers, statistics, or real information to show how it would be a good idea?
If one thinks about it, why would CSX use it, they have the River Line, why use a tunnel to go thru NYC, then try and get across Metro North to get anywhere in New England? Metro North where they have equipment and time restrictions?
Why would NS use it? To connect to who besides the NYA? They already have their connection to New England via D&H and Guilford.
Just because this tunnel appears, does that mean new customers will just suddenly appear on the NYA?? I think not, they will have the same 15-30 carloads a day come in thru that gateway.
Why do some people think that if this tunnel is built, all of a sudden 2 mile long stack trains will start running thru it on 30 minute headway's? (Which I would love to know where they would go, NYA has no room for a intermodal yard, which would have to be on freight territory since well cars won't clear the third rail on LIRR).
Guys need to stop foaming and look at this like the business that it is.
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