Cross Harbor Tunnel (PATH / NYCT/Freight) Staten Island - Brooklyn

OK, I'll go first.
A.) Lets forget the trans-Manhattan tube concept - the PA was planning for Cross Harbor, and I think they would have considered Cranford -- B&O Staten Island -- Tunnel -- Bay Ridge -- Fresh Pond & Beyond. If we are lucky, we get the equivalent to Plate E (15' 8" from railhead to top - not including the distance between wire (remember, electric traction in this tunnel...I guess it could use 3rd rail) and top of rolling stock - maybe we get plate C clearence (foreshadowing). Let's say it gets New Deal funding, and opens 1937...

1.) This means most Car-float service is dumped much earlier than Our Time Line (OTL) - except the Jersey -- Manhattan services stick around longer (no direct access except NYC). I don't think a lot of the cross harbor car floating lasts much past WWII.
2.) Through Cross Hudson service from Jersey to New England - this cuts heavily into the through routing via the Poughkeepsie bridge - perhaps it gets closed down early, knocking the heck out of Leigh Valley and Leigh & New England. New Haven routes via the tunnel (Hell's Gate), so it doesn't care. Hmm, will Penn Central (yes, this tunnel probably won't prevent that merger) try to route everything via Selkirk to avoid the PA Belt Line's charges?
3.) I think heavy industry in Brooklyn & Queens gets a boost, although like everywhere else the local coal dealer, small lumber yard, and LCL service that all towns on Long Island had fade away over the decades, gone during the 1960s
4.) OK, by the 1960s-1970s we have Plate F clearances becoming common enough, especially for intermodal. How is the tunnel handled now? At first I can see High & Wides going via Selkirk, or perhaps car floating them, but would there be any move to increase the tunnel clearances, or would it be relegated to low value, low clearance stuff (and would HazMat be restricted?).
Remember, just cause a lot of money went into building rail infrastructure doesn't mean it will be used - look at the West Side High Line, which I don't think ever got the usage that the NYC foresaw when planning it, and didn't really have a long economic usage (1934- 1980).

Otto Vondrak wrote:Why ask a question/pose a scenario if you have no opinion yourself?

No, no... you go first. I insist.

Well Sir Ray went first, but based upon my limited knowledge there seemed to be 2 possible plans: PRR adding another tube under the East & Hudson Rivers and/or PA NY/NJ project.

I mentioned the construction of NYP with its East & Hudosn River tubes in my original post to sort of give a time frame (everything completed before 1940s) and as this ROW is the only rail tunnel project that connects NJ-Manhattan-Queens that I know of. Either tunnel project should still see manufacturing in Manhattan die out, but those in Brooklyn/Queens/LI hang on longer with direct rail access to the rest of the country. As passenger ferries diminished when NYP was complete, so should most of the car-floats if tunnel directly connects Manhattan & NJ. With direct rail access, goods have easier access to NYC Metro area, but would run into the clearance issues but would it be enough to compete against trucking - I do not know.

PRR using their capital to build NJ-Manhattan-Queens tunnel is the key. If PRR will not interchange with its competitors, then it adds its own freight yard to the West Side Yards. With less or no car floats, PRR competitors: 1) pay whatever PRR wants for tunnel access, 2) merge with/bought out by PRR (Penn Central sooner?), or 3) merge with each other AND look for help from PA NY/NJ to build a competing tunnel.

The PA NY/NJ plan really depends on what PRR reaction would be as owner of LIRR with trackage rights of Bay Ridge line and if PRR built their own tunnel. If no PRR tunnel and Narrows tunnel built: PA NY/NJ buys SIRR ROW (B&O), probably trackage in NJ for interchange if Arlington Yard not enough and maybe NYCHRR(predessors?) ROWs in Brooklyn (SoBklynRR ROW might be nice too). Makes deal with PRR for trackage ownership/rights on Bay Ridge line to Fresh Ponds. Having ownership/rights to ROW north of Fresh Ponds-Hell Gate-Oak Point (NYCR?) for interchange with NE freights would be ideal. This turns bad if PA NY/NJ does not get enough funds, even with New Deal, and PRR steps in with funds in exchange for beneficial tunnel use, those ROWs use and interchange rate with competitors. If PRR builds NJ-Manhattan-Queens tunnel thing are worse: PRR's competitors best hope is to merge/partner with each other AND HOPE PA NY/NJ helps them fund a tunnel under Hudosn River to connect NYC Empire/High Line to one of their ROWs in NJ.

Clearance still becomes an issue and its fix depends on how well RR competed against trucking into the late 1960s/early 1970s. If still successful against trucking to have the capital, then incentive to upgrage/replace tunnel/tunnels.

There I proved my lack of knowlege, so pick apart my info.

Hmm, today I saw the current issue of Trains and noticed their Map-of-the-Month covered NY Harbor Terminal Yards and car-float services during their heyday (maybe - I thought I saw 1962, which definitely was NOT car-float heyday). You gotta love all those multi-colored dashed lines indicating the car-float routings (even 1 or two routes around the North of Manhattan via the Harlem river).
So, given the PA Belt Line tunnel proposal, by 1962 almost all those dashed lines are history (except those going to Manhattan terminals - and some of those routes are also gone, since many terminal yards that served Long Island/Bronx and also floated cars to Manhattan don't exist in this timeline), leaving such a lame map that Trains instead goes for 'Iron Hauling Roads of Michigan's UP' as Map-of-the-Month January 2009...

hrfcarl wrote:Well Sir Ray went first, but based upon my limited knowledge there seemed to be 2 possible plans: PRR adding another tube under the East & Hudson Rivers and/or PA NY/NJ project... There I proved my lack of knowlege, so pick apart my info.

Well, it turns out you DO have an opinion! Are you soliciting new ideas or are you just wondering if your own plans would be feasible?

I probably have my time line a little screwed up, but perhaps when someone finally decided that it was feasable to go to Boston via the present water edge route along the Ct shore (and did it), it kinda deflated the LIRR plans to ferry from Orient. That may have also deflated any plans to tunnel across the harbor.. but again, I am not sure of the timing... Ed

Otto Vondrak wrote:

hrfcarl wrote:Well Sir Ray went first, but based upon my limited knowledge there seemed to be 2 possible plans: PRR adding another tube under the East & Hudson Rivers and/or PA NY/NJ project... There I proved my lack of knowlege, so pick apart my info.

Well, it turns out you DO have an opinion! Are you soliciting new ideas or are you just wondering if your own plans would be feasible?

Both. Never do I believe any of my ideas are the best and input from others was the whole point of starting this thread.

EdM wrote:I probably have my time line a little screwed up, but perhaps when someone finally decided that it was feasable to go to Boston via the present water edge route along the Ct shore (and did it), it kinda deflated the LIRR plans to ferry from Orient. That may have also deflated any plans to tunnel across the harbor.. but again, I am not sure of the timing... Ed

There are at least two decades between them. Shore Line became practical in 1880s when the Thames River in CT was crossed. The PRR Hudson and East River tunnels were part of the Penn Station project 1903-1910. It took another 7 years before the New York Connecting RR (Hell Gate Line and its Bridge) was completed.

What became the H&M tunnels had a few rough starts between 1870 and 1900.

The task of drilling and building those tunnels was difficult and expensive. That's the main reason why nobody ever tried to do it again.

Is the cross harbor tunnel a front runner for funding in the stimulus package. They say they are favoring public projects that are quote shovel ready, i.e. eviromental studies have been. Anybody got any info?

What freightload is so "hot" that it can't go around the Selkirk Hurdle to reach Queens?

That may be right but that's not the answer to the question. Many debatable projects have gone through, in a time were fossil fuels are readily cheap and plentiful that statement may ring true. But where one oil embargo or 9/11 disaster away putting our transportation and economy to our knees. They laughed when they built the tunnel to nowhere decades ago, now ESA is being considered vital to our growth and economy. My point being this might be a great opportunity to fund this project .

EIS for the tunnel wont be done until 2012.

......there will be a couple of those large tunneling machines available in the next few years...........

There's no commercial need for a freight link South of Selkirk? Why? Because there's precious little industry left to be served on the east side of the Hudson, and there hasn't been since the 1960s.

This is an example of a project that shouldn't even have been funded at the study level. Literally, this is the equivalent of the now famous Alaskan "Bridge to Nowhere," since there's absolutely no commercial necessity for a tunnel, let alone car floats, to bring rail freight from New Jersey to Brooklyn.

The Brooklyn waterfront is a better venue for residential development than for doomed schemes to develop container ports that no shipper would ever want to use.

A better use for stimulus money would be in finally completing the 2nd Avenue Subway. It is a disgrace that this project wasn't completed in the 1950s, or even in the the 1970s. Say what you want, but it was inexcusable to tear down the Elevated lines on the East Side of Manhattan without even a single subway line as a timely replacement. People still think of LaGuardia as being a great man of the people, but when he tore down the Els, he was only working on behalf of the landlords and property developers - the classic hallmark of a cheap politician.

There is more to rail freight east of the Hudson besides Brooklyn. You still have manufacturing in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. Plus, you have a direct route to the New England area. via Hell Gate.

ex-tc driver wrote:Is the cross harbor tunnel a front runner for funding in the stimulus package. They say they are favoring public projects that are quote shovel ready, i.e. eviromental studies have been. Anybody got any info?

Is this project actually a candidate for federal funds?