Could a New Haven steamer be re-created?

Read the article in Trains on the A1 "Tornado" project in the UK and it got me thinking: could we ever do such a thing in the United States? How much would it cost, in 2009, to recreate, say, an I-5 Shoreliner? Could enough public enthusiasm be generated in Southern New England to raise the funds? Do the plans for the engine still exist, either in the NYNH&H corporate archives (which I think are at UConn-Storrs) or whever the records of the Baldwin Locomotive Works ended up?

Imagine being able to see a real, live I-5 at speed on the shore line!

(OK, I know its about as likely as Amtrak deciding to build EP-3's to haul the Acela, but you can always dream)

I don't know what type of engine it will be but the Valley RR is going to convert its ex-K&K steamer into a NH steam engine replica.

atsf sp wrote:I don't know what type of engine it will be but the Valley RR is going to convert its ex-K&K steamer into a NH steam engine replica.

I suppose anything is possible but the Chinese engine that is to be rebuilt at Essex to resemble a J-1 2-8-2 will still be a
Chinese locomotive and not a New Haven J-1.
When you win the "powerball", you can use your winnings to have a New Haven steam engine built somewhere overseas, it
can look and appear like a New Haven engine but it will NEVER EVER be a New Haven engine.
Noel Weaver

Are drawings, specs, etc. for the New Haven's later classes of steamers (say post-1915) still extant somewhere?

Agreed that it would not BE a New Haven steam engine. What I was thinking was along the lines of what the A-1 trust did in the UK- they built a new member of a class of mainline steam engines (the "Peppercorn"-class Pacifics) and numbered it sequentially with the originals.

Ridgefielder wrote:Read the article in Trains on the A1 "Tornado" project in the UK and it got me thinking: could we ever do such a thing in the United States?

Doubtful. You'll have to settle for the New Haven re-creation at the Valley Railroad.

http://theenginehouse.blogspot.com/2008 ... -3025.html

-otto-

The way that steam just practically disappeared off the face of the earth in the mid to late 50's, some (and I stress some, meaning a few) industries did pick up some of the old gals for a variety of reasons. Some may have been used for factories, some may have used their boilers for heating, some maybe purchased for their metal, and some undoubtably languished in a junk pile. I just wondered if one might be at the bottom of a junkpile still. Restorable ? Highly unlikely. But just what if running gear with rods and pistons, cab, controls, etc. etc. could be salvaged and put into a brand new steamer ? You would have the best of both worlds- a rebirth of a real New Haven practically and more importantly, sentimenatally, and an efficient, new loco at the same time. So, it comes down to this: Has anyone or group ever done a little detective work (actually, a lot of detective work), steamer for steamer, to find out the actual fate for each one of New Haven's beauties ? Are records available to trace their fate ? Could a sembelence of one be out there somewhere waiting to be rescued ?

OK, boys, time for the dreaded "Reality Check" (not to be confused with another type of check, which we will refer to shortly).

First, there are NO pieces, bits, parts of steam locomotives hiding in factories, mills, etc. Every one of the 1500+ steam locomotives in New England in 1945 has been accounted for in the last 60 years. There are NO secrets out there.

Second, there are NO plans, documents, specs, etc for NH I-5s or anything else (except for B&M 3713, the 4-6-2 being slowly restored at Steamtown-- as a Lima Loco, the plans exist, because that stuff was donated to California State RR Museum). It ALL went into landfills before most of use were born. NO secret stash of NH steam blueprints anywhere, boys.

Last, you can have any steam locomotive your heart desires. All it takes is many cubic yards of hundred dollar bills. A replica NH i-5 4-6-4 could probably be built for between 4 and 5 million dollars. Where will it run, on Amtrak's NH-Boston route?? On Metro-North?? It's too big a locomotive for practical operation anywhere it would be welcomed, these days. The "new" steam loco will have many differences with the old one, differences in fabrication and machining techniques, safety appliances, etc. So, the "original" plans would be a good guide, but not an absolute roadmap.

The "Tornado" just completed in Great Britain was a wonderful project, and one that will never happen in the US, because USA railfans are too cheap, too provincial and too lazy to make it happen.

If you want to see another steam locomotive operating in the region, start raising funds for RMNE's #1246, a nice light Pacific built in 1946 (relatively modern). There is a shop building and a 20-mile railroad to run it on. When you have collected about $700,000, call them and they will be ready for you. Then, 2 years later, you should be able to blow the whistle. And if you raise the money (or most of it), rest assured you WILL get to blow the whistle any time you wish.

Hmm. H.F.- I know that you know what you're talking about and I respect your opinion. But...you know, there's an old saying, "Never say never".
On a related topic, are there any NH locos that decided to go for a deep water scuba dive without a snorkel (preferably in fresh water) and were never recovered ? (I can tell you where there is a virtually unknown sunken 1800's horse-drawn Boston Fire Engine, as well as parts to a Boston Elevated Railway Co. trolley that sunk in 1916.) Just food for thought.

3rdrail wrote: NH locos that decided to go for a deep water scuba dive without a snorkel

I don't think so and if there is, it is unlikey for it to be raised. How many times has it been thought to raise B&M 3666 out or Portsmouth but it is always shot down.

It's as H.F. has suggested- not enough interest. If there was a large enough contingent of B&M fans (or history, New Hampshire fans...whatever) interested, who were packing the project with bucks, that loco would be sun bathing by now. Technology exists to raise ocean liners from the deep, but it ain't cheap !

http://www.njmt.org/docs/projects/TrainsPP0207.pdf

Also, a quick Google, turns up all kinds of technical info on New Haven steamers. Just as an example, here's one from Steamlocomotive.com; http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/?page=nh

This same site claims that a New Haven 2 - 8 - 2, No. 3025, is at Valley RR, Essex, Ct.; http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/CT.shtml

3rdrail wrote: This same site claims that a New Haven 2 - 8 - 2, No. 3025, is at Valley RR, Essex, Ct.; http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/CT.shtml

Wow! It's on the Internet so it must be true!

That is simply a premature reference to the proposed rebuilding of the Chinese 2-8-2 from the Knox & Kane into a pseudo-NH J-1.

TomNelligan wrote:

3rdrail wrote: This same site claims that a New Haven 2 - 8 - 2, No. 3025, is at Valley RR, Essex, Ct.; http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/CT.shtml

Wow! It's on the Internet so it must be true!

That is simply a premature reference to the proposed rebuilding of the Chinese 2-8-2 from the Knox & Kane into a pseudo-NH J-1.

Wow! My sentence read that "the site claimed", and I actually read someone's post before I make an insulting reply.

Mr. Joyce, my comment was directed towards the site that's posting the false information, not your reference to it. My apologies if it appeared otherwise.

With regard to that B&M engine in Portsmouth: while it might be interesting to retrieve it as an artifact, I can't think it would be in a state that would even remotely allow it to be brought back into working order. I'd imagine the boiler must have ruptured the minute she hit that cold Gulf of Maine water, for one thing.

Stupid question, but if the California State RR Museum got the Lima archives, wouldn't that include stuff from Baldwin, since they merged in the early '50's?

I'm somewhat surprised that none of the NYNH&H archives survived: then again, considering that Penn Central seems to have tried to expunge every trace of the New Haven, I suppose I shouldn't be.

I'm not saying that it should be restored to steam operation, I was just commenting on what 3rdrail said.

3rdrail wrote:are there any NH locos that decided to go for a deep water scuba dive without a snorkel