Connecticut River Line (Pan Am)

MEC407 wrote:Concrete ties are indeed supposed to last much longer than wood, but hasn't MBTA had some major problems with concrete ties failing after only a few years?

I thought that was due to a bad batch of concrete used in their manufacturing.

Cadet57 wrote:

MEC407 wrote:Concrete ties are indeed supposed to last much longer than wood, but hasn't MBTA had some major problems with concrete ties failing after only a few years?

I thought that was due to a bad batch of concrete used in their manufacturing.

Yeah. Faulty product the manufacturer knowingly knew had a bad mix. And not for the first time, either. Got their asses sued, but they'd be bankrupted if they had to rebate in-full so Mass. got stuck paying a lot of the bill in order to recoup what it could. T's been burned by that before when the Needham Line got rebuilt in the 80's with concrete ties and those too instantly failed and needed replacement. That and Amtrak's similar early-90's problems with concrete tie lemons was probably what got Guilford saying "HELL NO!" during Downeaster construction.

There's nothing inherently wrong with them in cold climate. They're engineered to hold up in that temperature range through their rated lifespan. The thaw cycles only affect them when maintenance is deferred way beyond rated lifespan...but wood's not real good for keeping track speeds either when it goes years past-due. There's plenty of lines, including long stretches of NEC, that have concrete with zero issues. Northeastern RR's have just been unlucky and gotten victimized by a couple bad-apple vendors robbing them with shoddy product. The region's probably done with new-installs because it looks worse perception-wise to the public than it does engineering-wise to the RR. MBTA's certainly not going to touch them again after the drubbing it took over the Old Colony replacement.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

MEC407 wrote:Concrete ties are indeed supposed to last much longer than wood, but hasn't MBTA had some major problems with concrete ties failing after only a few years?

I thought that was due to a bad batch of concrete used in their manufacturing.

Yeah. Faulty product the manufacturer knowingly knew had a bad mix. And not for the first time, either. Got their asses sued, but they'd be bankrupted if they had to rebate in-full so Mass. got stuck paying a lot of the bill in order to recoup what it could. T's been burned by that before when the Needham Line got rebuilt in the 80's with concrete ties and those too instantly failed and needed replacement. That and Amtrak's similar early-90's problems with concrete tie lemons was probably what got Guilford saying "HELL NO!" during Downeaster construction.

Ok so many places are shipping out "bad batches" over quite a time span and we are supposed to believe its all better now. There are also reports of concrete ties being more prone to sinking in the ballast

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: There's nothing inherently wrong with them in cold climate. They're engineered to hold up in that temperature range through their rated lifespan. The thaw cycles only affect them when maintenance is deferred way beyond rated lifespan...but wood's not real good for keeping track speeds either when it goes years past-due. There's plenty of lines, including long stretches of NEC, that have concrete with zero issues. Northeastern RR's have just been unlucky and gotten victimized by a couple bad-apple vendors robbing them with shoddy product. The region's probably done with new-installs because it looks worse perception-wise to the public than it does engineering-wise to the RR. MBTA's certainly not going to touch them again after the drubbing it took over the Old Colony replacement.

Actually concrete has some inherent problems with freeze thaw cycles, but we can engineer some of the problems out of them. They are also prone to failure in areas where road salt is used which corrodes the rebar. You can do a lot with concrete but its not perfect for every application, hence the need to engineer a solution. Wood requires no engineering just periodic replacement.

How many freight rail roads use concrete ties?

I believe Union Pacific and BNSF use concrete on some of their high speed mainlines out west. I don't think concrete is particularly common/popular with the eastern Class I roads, though. (Northeast Corridor excepted)

You mostly see them in Commuter territory or High Traffic Freight... so mostly West Coast.

MEC407 wrote:Concrete ties are indeed supposed to last much longer than wood, but hasn't MBTA had some major problems with concrete ties failing after only a few years?

During the planning stages of the Plaistow-Portland upgrade in the late '90s and early 2000s, NNEPRA and Amtrak wanted to use concrete ties, but Guilford was vehemently against it and insisted on wood. And wood is what they got.

Doesn't PanAm's corporate parent also own a company that manufactures wooden ties?

Yes they do....It's in Conneticut.

and Mattawamkeag, ME. It's called Perma Treat.

Any updates on construction ? I can see RJ Corman working on the NECR as I look out my windows, but is anything happening south of here ?

Are they going to start on one end and work to the other ? or some other bits and pieces plan ?

About six weeks ago I checked with MASSDOT and was told that the state, PanAm and FRA were still working on an agreement that would allow authorized funding to be released. My experience with other states is that some will issue press releases when the $$$ are released, and some won't. Let's keep our eyes and ears open to any sighting of work taking place on the Conn River this year.

Andy

BigLou80 wrote:Any updates on construction ? I can see RJ Corman working on the NECR as I look out my windows, but is anything happening south of here ?

Are they going to start on one end and work to the other ? or some other bits and pieces plan ?

I was told that the Conn River will have to wait until 2012 as the production crew is tied up in Maine - likely with the Portland-Brunswick improvements. Also he mentioned that there is a heavy demand for rail these days so availibility may be cause a delay. As mentioned earlier this is a massive project - roadbed imprivements plus new ballast, ties, and rail; new passing sidings and signalling and I imagine bridge work - I'm not qualified up there but four major bridges that I can remember would be Chicopee, Willimansett-Holyoke (Conn. River), Mt Tom Jct (Ox Bow) and near East Deerfield (Deerfield River?).
Following the completion of planning, improvements reportedly would start with a limited tie replacement to allow installation of the new welded rail. Then a massive tie replacement and surfacing would follow.

Are the allowed to do that, as I thought all federal monies had to be spent by a certain date?

CVRA7 wrote:I was told that the Conn River will have to wait until 2012 as the production crew is tied up in Maine - likely with the Portland-Brunswick improvements. Also he mentioned that there is a heavy demand for rail these days so availibility may be cause a delay. As mentioned earlier this is a massive project - roadbed imprivements plus new ballast, ties, and rail; new passing sidings and signalling and I imagine bridge work - I'm not qualified up there but four major bridges that I can remember would be Chicopee, Willimansett-Holyoke (Conn. River), Mt Tom Jct (Ox Bow) and near East Deerfield (Deerfield River?).
Following the completion of planning, improvements reportedly would start with a limited tie replacement to allow installation of the new welded rail. Then a massive tie replacement and surfacing would follow.

Hmmm, I think the new station in Greenfield is scheduled to be done at the end of summer, looks like its going to sit for a few years before any trains arrive.

Does anybody know what they are planing to use for a station in Northampton? are the going to use the existing station ? or something else. Will there be a stop in Holyoke ?

AFAIK all of the bridges are in decent shape structurally they may need new decking but otherwise they are good to go.

Finally, I thought the plan was to do a 100% replacement. Remove all the old rails and ties, spread the old ballast out and start over is that no longer the plan ?

Some of the ties will be reusable. The line may have been poorly maintained, but it's still active so not totally frozen in time for more recent upkeep. Speed's mainly dependent on replacing the broken ones and replacing a high enough percentage of them overall to up the running speed class. Same goes with ballast, which will be in varying shape throughout. Some places they'll need a new dump, some places they'll be able to re-tamp in place when they replace the bolted rail with CWR.

BigLou80 wrote:
Does anybody know what they are planing to use for a station in Northampton? are the going to use the existing station ? or something else. Will there be a stop in Holyoke ?

AFAIK all of the bridges are in decent shape structurally they may need new decking but otherwise they are good to go.

Northampton is planning on an Amshack for now with Quicktrak machines, and then later build an intermodal station. No plans for Holyoke at the present, but there is (was?) a group trying to reopen the Holyoke station.