• CMSL Cape May (NJ) Seashore Lines Non-Passenger Operations

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New Jersey

Moderator: David

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  by Tanker1497
 
CR7876 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:14 pm
Tanker1497 wrote: Tony might still just want to just store cars 13 miles is alot of cars!
The most truest statement I've read in this forum in a long time.
Ya I'm not a jumper yet... but have my concearn's that trains are going to be running all about?
  by Bracdude181
 
Work wise, there’s hardly anything left to do on Seashore Line's end. All that needs to be done is the Union Ave crossing, some spot repairs, crossings added to some of the dirt roads in Woodmansie, and remove any fallen trees. Clayton needs to set up a hopper car loader or something of the sort but they will figure that out.

As for the car storage thing, NOPE. Not from Lakehurst to Woodmansie at least.

Remember that millions of dollars from Seashore Lines, Clayton, and the state have went into this line by now, and the track is now Class 2 quality. (25 MPH freight and 30 MPH passenger) If the whole purpose was for railcar storage then why didn’t they just do the bare minimum for trains to run on this track? It would’ve been MUCH cheaper for one thing.

Secondly, Clayton owns the track. I doubt they’d go through all this trouble to have someone operate the line solely to store cars on it. These sand trains have the opportunity to make them a lot of money, (if they play their cards right) and I’d imagine even if they got a fraction of whatever Seashore Lines would make storing the cars, it wouldn’t do much for them. Remember, they pay over 13k in taxes annually on this line and that’s a lot of money for just car storage.

Lastly, if the whole thing was for car storage then there’s absolutely not a chance in hell that Conrail North Jersey would open Lakewood to Lakehurst only to go down there and drop off/pick up cars as needed. They barely want to reopen it for the sand trains as it is.
  by R&DB
 
and the track is now Class 2 quality
Did FRA inspect and certify Class2? They are the only ones who can do that to my knowledge. But what does it matter if the track from Lakehurst North is Excepted. (ie No Class) 10mph freight only
  by Bracdude181
 
@R&DB Some sections of the Clayton owned portion look as if a train could do 40! Pretty sure it’s Class 2 but I’ll have to look into it.

Lakehurst to Lakewood had some repairs done before it was closed. I think it was at least Class 1 prior to closure.

It would not surprise me if all points north of Lakewood just barely meet excepted track status. Some sections are so bad that it’s honestly a miracle the train doesn’t derail!
  by Tanker1497
 
I can honestly see all this work being done on the QT under the private ownership of Clayton. Private agencies get far better work rates far lower than that of a State bloated rates! I can see NJDOT pick small sections over the next few years and fix the things under the guise of Grafiti, Safety add some repairs here and there. I would not be surprised they repair the track from Clayton's pit to Route 72 bridge 1.3 miles for storage of sand cars not used each week for sand? Once they get in that forest for 23 miles aint no buddy going to know whats going on but for a few home owners, NIMBY won't be an issue then. Tree huggers have no say on federally own lands, that rail line hasn't been sold and a rail trail to no where's in no where's doesn't float!
Then we will see a big payday for Clayton when the sells the 13.3 miles back to NJDOT to make the line whole again.
I would be surprized if CMSL and mostly Clayton has more than half million in taxes and 3 or 4 million out of pocket for buying 13.3 miles and agency matching funds of the last 40 years!
They always say Follow the money, Follow the money!
  by Bracdude181
 
It has been mentioned before that Seashore Lines may be working on restoring service at least as far as Chatsworth. Hoping this is true. Not exactly sure what would be accomplished by opening up back to Winslow. It’s pretty scenic out there so an excursion train could be pretty popular, but the line is in really bad shape south of Chatsworth, so justifying the expensive repairs might be difficult.
  by Tanker1497
 
Doesn't Wislow interchange with other railroad? Maybe Claytons sand wants to get south too!
Remembering its my pipe dream!
  by Bracdude181
 
@Tanker1497 Winslow Junction is the headquarters of Southern Railroad of New Jersey. They exchange with Conrail there. At the moment, can’t think of any reason for Claytons sand to go south by rail at the moment but perhaps a reason may pop up in the future. You never know!
  by Tanker1497
 
"At the moment, can’t think of any reason for Claytons sand to go south by rail at the moment but perhaps a reason may pop up in the future."
Here in lies the the problem you can't think of where the sand might go. There are 49 other states many don't have great sand for cement. If you move it by rails it might just end up ie FLA where they have zero sand for cement. FLA is built on Lime stone fields. Maybe it might just go Colorado or Oregon? We don't really need to firgure where its going just put some on a train and ship it!
  by JohnFromJersey
 
Currently, NJDOT owns everything between Winslow and Clayton's sand, so I don't think they will be slowly but surely selling anytime soon, though it could be a possibility; as Tanker mentioned, Clayton has been restoring the 13 or so miles of track from it to Lakehurst, with Conrail doing whatever is between Lakehurst and Lakewood; probably close to the mileage from Clayton's down to Winslow. That being said, A LOT more trackwork would need to be done, including rebuilding many (small) bridges.

Someone who is active on this thread told me offsite that there is a nation-wide sand shortage on the horizon, so Clayton could come into play soon. I don't know if many states have sandpits/high-quality sand, but I'd imagine there's a site closer to Florida that would supply them; there are certainly states closer to here that could use it.

Since we're talking about pipe dreams, I personally am thinking/hoping that this could be a future endeavor for NJT relating to MOM; I think the proposed MOM service would be more profitable/realistic if instead of the line ending in the middle of nowhere Lakehurst, the line continues south to either AC or Philly for its terminus, giving South Jersey and Philly better access to NYC and the Shore, and vice versa. It could also be used to relieve some freight traffic that NJT has on their more Western lines that connect Philly and NYC. But I do think Winslow-Lakehurst will come back at some time, especially since the development that has been going on in North/Central Jersey is slowly moving Southward.
  by Ken W2KB
 
Per the relevant US Government agency, major production states listed: >>>"SAND AND GRAVEL (CONSTRUCTION)1(Data in million metric tons unless otherwise noted)Domestic Production and Use:In 2019, 970 million tons of construction sand and gravel valued at $9.0 billion was produced by an estimated 3,870 companies operating 6,830 pits and 342 sales and distribution yards in 50 States. Leading producing States were Texas, California, Arizona, Minnesota, Michigan, Washington, Ohio, New York, Utah, and Colorado, in order of decreasing tonnage, which together accounted for about 55% of total output. It is estimated that about 46% of construction sand and gravel was used as concrete aggregates; 21%, for road base and coverings and road stabilization; 13%, as construction fill; 12%, as asphaltic concrete aggregates and other bituminous mixtures; 13%, as construction fill; and 4%, for other miscellaneous uses. The remaining 4% was used for concrete products, filtration, golf course maintenance, plaster and gunite sands, railroad ballast, road stabilization, roofing granules, and snow and ice control"<<< https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs20 ... uction.pdf
  by Bracdude181
 
@JohnFromJersey Should we ever see revenue passenger trains on the Southern Secondary again, I pray that they won’t be run by NJT. Literally anyone would be better at running a railroad. It seems their only two goals are to pocket money and destroy everything they touch or are otherwise involved with. (where possible)

I have previously wondered if there’s some kind of loopholes somewhere that would allow Seashore Lines or another private company to run passenger trains from Toms River to Red Bank without the PTC and Cab Signal requirements. (Which add millions to an already expensive endeavor)

As it stands now there is big potential for the Southern and the TRIT to become highly profitable freight lines again, but that’s gonna depend on how things play out and whatever the deal is with all this supposed C&D takeover stuff. (Which I’m very doubtful and weary of)
  by JohnFromJersey
 
Bracdude181 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:16 pm @JohnFromJersey Should we ever see revenue passenger trains on the Southern Secondary again, I pray that they won’t be run by NJT. Literally anyone would be better at running a railroad. It seems their only two goals are to pocket money and destroy everything they touch or are otherwise involved with. (where possible)

I have previously wondered if there’s some kind of loopholes somewhere that would allow Seashore Lines or another private company to run passenger trains from Toms River to Red Bank without the PTC and Cab Signal requirements. (Which add millions to an already expensive endeavor)

As it stands now there is big potential for the Southern and the TRIT to become highly profitable freight lines again, but that’s gonna depend on how things play out and whatever the deal is with all this supposed C&D takeover stuff. (Which I’m very doubtful and weary of)
Since they'd be carrying passengers, I'd imagine PTC would be needed. There's no way NJDOT would let passenger trains run without it after that big accident in Hoboken a few years ago. Not to mention, I don't think people would want to take a shuttle if they would have to pay for the shuttle+normal NJT prices, unless the shuttle was cheap (hard to be profitable) or NJT made a dual admissions thing (as you said, NJT is very stubborn). Maybe it could work, who knows.

Honestly, I think C&D (supposedly) taking over is a good thing. You seem to be the most annoyed with Conrail on these threads, and we have no other practical choice(s) for the running/management of the Southern/Freehold/TRIT Secondary than C&D. They are proven in their other ventures, as they have updated equipment and MOW on neglected lines they took over. Class 1's would certainly be not much better than Conrail if one of them bought the line, and I doubt they have any interest in it. CMSL probably doesn't have the capital at the moment to do anything but move sand, and I don't think there's any other company that is interested in buying the line, unless they want to turn it into an irreversible rail trail (shudder). I doubt they have anything malicious if they are trying to operate the entire Central Jersey operation, and are going into it intending to reopen a section of the line that hasn't been used since some people on this thread have been born.

Unfortunately, things on the railroad, as things in general, don't move as fast as they used to, especially in Jersey. This is going to be the long haul for us.
  by NY&LB
 
Drilling down a little further into what Ken W2KB posted I found the following 2017 information:

Transportation
No means of transportation was reported by the producers
for 673 Mt of the 880 Mt of construction sand and gravel
produced for consumption in 2017. Of the remaining 206 Mt
of construction sand and gravel, 80% was reported as being
transported by truck from the pit or the processing plant to
the first point of sale or use, 6% by waterway, and 1% by rail.
About 21.3 Mt of the specified production was reported as not
having been transported and, therefore, is assumed to have
been used onsite.
From USCG 2017 Minerals Yearbook
U.S. Department of the Interior
U.S. Geological Survey
SAND AND GRAVEL, CONSTRUCTION
https://prd-wret.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws ... -sandc.pdf

The 1% by rail is startling, of course 76% of the sand production did not report the transportation method.
To me, this along with the statistics in Ken's post regarding the top producing states (NOT NJ), squashes any speculation of Clayton supplying sand (by rail) to any distant sand customers.
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