Can the NYS&W revival of the 1980s happen in 2010s?

Today's NYS&W is bascially the modern NYO&W - it connects New York City with no place particularly special, or that isn't already well served by another railroad. The reason it was able to be successful in the 1980s was in part through fooling Conrail - letting them connect the former DL&W branches with the existing RR, via haulage and eventually trackage rights - and in part because with the D&H and CSX there was, at first, a complete alternate route for those stacks to run into Little Ferry.

It also was completely independent at that time.

Today, NS and CSX have their means to control the NYS&W, to prevent any such thing from happening again - which in and of itself would require a small miracle, since with CP giving up their rights to Buffalo, there really is no place to connect to. At the least they'd have to reach Hornell and the WNY&P to be able to get anyplace else west, but you'd have to patch together one hell of a network of shortlines and regional roads to get far enough west to have any meaningful connection, and by the time you did the rates would be so divided out it's not likely anyone would make much money that way. (perhaps WNY&P to a B&P connection and in Pittsburgh connect to the W&LE, and that would get you far enough to connect to the Fort Wayne & Eastern and get you to Chicago?)

And then you'd need some kind of traffic to haul, to boot.

Just a though here... but I think the only way for a revival of the nys&w is for something like a wealthy private investor to make a play for them like a warren buffet or someone like that. Or at the very least have someone make an investment where they buy/get like say 20-30% of the company, enough to lessen the sphere of influence of CSX/NS.

I read somewhere on this forum that ownership of company is like 40-40% csx/ns and 20% for the Rich family. Well, if someone were to get 20% then it would be 30/30% csx/ns 20% Rich family and 20% someone else. That might bring about some changes maybe? (or if someone could make a significant enough investment to make it even with CSX/NS)

Perhaps like 25% for everyone would make it even.

No one can say for certain who owns how much.


The problem is, like I said in the previous post, why would anyone want to buy the RR except to play trains? It doesn't go anywhere or connect anything that can't already be connected by someone else. It can serve as extra capacity for other carriers, or a detour route, but not much more.

Well, yes you make a good point, but I believe competition is good. And as long as csx/ns control the NYS&W, they control any chance of anyone else moving in so to speak.

As lvrr325 and others have pointed out, who would want to move in, and why? Possibly BNSF or UP might want to, as a very-much third-class entrance to the New York market, but they'd have to get to Buffalo first.

The only, and I think for sure only, logical chance for a revivial would require the NYS&W to be combined with CSX's Montreal route and become a CN connection to the New York market. But the folks at CSX understand that, so they're taking steps to prevent it by selling part of the line to CP and ending through service. And they've also been otherwise asking a high price for the line. Even then, CN works extensively with NS now to reach the same market, and they disposed of the CV which got them pretty close quite a long time ago.

lvrr325 wrote:The only, and I think for sure only, logical chance for a revivial would require the NYS&W to be combined with CSX's Montreal route and become a CN connection to the New York market. But the folks at CSX understand that, so they're taking steps to prevent it by selling part of the line to CP and ending through service. And they've also been otherwise asking a high price for the line. Even then, CN works extensively with NS now to reach the same market, and they disposed of the CV which got them pretty close quite a long time ago.

Yes, so pretty much it aint happening!!! LOL. The NYSW is dead as far as a regional is concerned.

I believe the NYS&W in NJ has more value as a passenger route than for freight.
If NJT can get funding (ha ha) to upgrade the line for passenger service between Warwick NY and North Bergen, with a connection to the Main Line in Hawthorne, a viable alternative to automobile and bus could be provided for those commuting along the route 23/94 corridor.
Additionally, a short extension of HBLR from its current terminus on Tonnelle ave North Bergen to cross the CSX track to a new station on the NYS&W there would connect the two lines. Or, just a covered bridge and possibly moving sidewalk could suffice for getting passengers from one station to the other.

If the new tunnel with its connection to NEC in Secaucus were to be built (another ha ha), then the NYS&W line and connection in Hawthorne would provide that coveted one seat ride all the way from Warwick NY to NYC. That would certainly be a profitable business if it were run properly.

As it stands now, I suppose any passenger service would be limited to peak hours trains, since there aren't any passing tracks (except I believe a short one in Butler).

FW

No. In the 1980s you had essentially a rail monopoly for service to the northern NJ/NYC market, and that was Conrail. NYSW was able to cob together a route that reached (via trackage rights and connections) a through route that provided an alternate to Conrail (I won't say "competition," since the service over their circuitous route was hardly competitive) for customers being treated rather gruffly by Conrail who assumed they HAD no alternative. Sea-Land wanted to use the Little Ferry terminal, Conrail offered North Bergen or go fish. NYSW got the traffic because they gave the customer what they wanted, even if the service was slower.

Today, the rail service monopoly no longer exists; the two main eastern US railroads, NS and CSX, both serve the northern NJ/NYC market with competitive routes, and neither is therefore in the position of being as inflexible as Conrail was on occasion, since in most cases customers can play one off of the other. In addition, since it was these very two railroads that provided the connections to the midwest gateways needed to provide NYSW with its needed connections to provide an "alternative" way into that market, there is no longer any hope of NYSW getting a hold of such cross-country bridge traffic as it did in the past. "Friendly" connections at Buffalo (for the key link to Chicago and the western carriers) have basically dried up, as those connections are now in possession of their own routes into the northeast markets, and without the CP trackage rights connection to Buffalo they couldn't reach Buffalo today anyhow. The NYSW routing is pitiful, slow and circuitous, and not remotely competitive with either the ex-NYC Water Level Route or the ex-PRR Penn Route for service to the west. CP had trackage rights into Oak Island to run intermodal trains, with a much better (but similarly slow and circuitous route) in the past, and didn't generate much business nor pose any real competitive threat to Conrail. It's service was essentially a day slower than what Conrail could offer (i.e., third morning delivery vs. 2nd morning delivery). What makes anyone reasonably believe that NYSW can do better with an even worse route and no more partners hungry for a piece of the northeast pie?!

The NYSW stack train miracle was an anomaly that won't happen again.