Binghamton NY - New York City NYC Passenger Rail Discussion

It is not that simple. The extra costs would be huge, who would pay for them?
Noel Weaver

It's a fair question.
Note NYS is already upgrading NY Rte 17 between Binghamton and the Thruway as traffic and population is growing in demand.

I don't think it's a very large market, but one NYS should at least look into, at least for once a day service.

But perhaps start with Thruway service for now as a feeder.

NYS does do ok with funding the Empire Service, but I think with some effort it could be far more effective than it is now.

Greg Moore wrote:It's a fair question.
Note NYS is already upgrading NY Rte 17 between Binghamton and the Thruway as traffic and population is growing in demand.

I don't think it's a very large market, but one NYS should at least look into, at least for once a day service.

But perhaps start with Thruway service for now as a feeder.

NYS does do ok with funding the Empire Service, but I think with some effort it could be far more effective than it is now.

NY State has been upgrading 17 (a/k/a "the Low Road") for many years now. Within the next few years the whole thing will be up to Interstate Highway standards and be re-designated as Interstate 86 (as the western 2/3 already have been).

If this is a state-supported service we're talking about, you have to factor in the state politics. Operations aside there are definitely political reasons that Southern Tier service might become a reality. Binghamton, with a metropolitan population of 250k, is by far the largest city in New York State with no passenger rail service. And the Southern Tier itself is economically depressed compared to the rest of the state.

Jeff Smith wrote:Opinion piece: Cornell Sun

Brief, fair-use:

No, an Amtrak Station in Ithaca Is Not an Absurd Idea

yes..it is.

This five-hour trip, which is taken either by the bus or the car, is the single biggest competitive disadvantage that Cornell and the Southern Tier has compared to its peers.

Perhaps..but Cornell's peers are irrelevant..
because its a choice of a 5 hour drive, or 10 hours or more by passenger rail..
faster than driving, by rail, simply isnt possible..which is why it no longer exists.
And if you built it, they would not come, (not enough to make it viable) because driving will always be faster and cheaper..

Scot

I'm pretty sure that there is interest in Pennsylvania in restoring the cutoff and creating an improved commuter route to NYC from their northeastern precincts; the prospect of improving the corridor through to Scranton would also appeal, at least from the point of view of Pocano tourism, if not for the sake of their even longer distance commuters to NYC. I believe that there is already a NJ/PA interstate compact which includes this project as one of their goals.

I's be surprised if NY were not interested in tacking onto such a line if it already was going to Scranton, just for the sake of adding Binghamton to the network. Moral support, for sure; votes in Congress, certainly; real money, perhaps a little.

Except for the Binghamton thing, NJ gets about as much out of this as NY does, which is to say, not that much - improved transportation for outside workers coming into the NYC area (at least some of them probably work in Jersey City or other NJ locations). There are not many more NJ commuter/residents left on the rest of the line to be restored in NJ, so they and NY are down to whatever people from the NYC area might want to go to PA or the Southern Tier. Connecting Binghamton should be a reasonably important thing in NY politics, but who knows how many budget dollars it might be worth.

Should such a route be created, would having the 3 states involved oblige Amtrak to participate, or does it have to go much further to qualify? Did the Phoebe Snow officially go all the way to Chicago, or was it considered two separate trains?

So, for this Binghamton thing at least to happen, PA in particular, and to some extent NY, need to either pony up some dollars to add to whatever NJ might be willing to spend, and they need to work together politically to get more federal dollars to help restore the cutoff.

johndmuller wrote:Should such a route be created, would having the 3 states involved oblige Amtrak to participate, or does it have to go much further to qualify? Did the Phoebe Snow officially go all the way to Chicago, or was it considered two separate trains?

Under DL&W operation the Phoebe Snow was a Hoboken-Buffalo train. A couple years after the 1960 merger that created the Erie-Lackawanna the EL started using the name on a Hoboken-Chicago service. That in turn was discontinued in 1966. The EL was out of the long-distance passenger business entirely a year or so before A-day in 1971, so Amtrak was never a factor on this route.

https://wnbf.com/binghamton-passenger-r ... years-ago/

Not really much in the article, but we'll see if Governor Cuomo resurrects this:

A half-century has passed since the last daily passenger train left the downtown Binghamton railroad station.
...
Over the past few decades, some state and local officials have said they would support efforts to restore passenger rail service to the region but there's been no significant progress in making that a reality.

Governor Cuomo has indicated he wants experts to come up with a new plan for high-speed rail service to link Buffalo, Albany and New York City.

Binghamton developer Mark Yonaty acquired the Lackawanna Train Station in 2012. The Lewis Street building was renovated and now is used by several businesses.

Cross-posted to Amtrak, and for historical information, DL&W, Lackawanna, Erie, etc.

Not much in the way of Amtrak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Sn ... in)#Amtrak

The EL discontinued its last long-distance passenger train, Lake Cities, on January 6, 1970, about 16 months before Amtrak took over most U.S. passenger train operations. Amtrak might have taken over the Hoboken-Chicago operation, but observers speculated that the EL wanted to rid itself of its passenger trains before that could happen.

On November 13, 1979, three years after Conrail assumed operation of the former EL lines, Amtrak operated an inspection train over the former route of the Phoebe Snow between Hoboken and Scranton to determine the feasibility of restoring rail service between the two cities, and to try to prevent the abandonment of the Lackawanna Cut-Off. Dubbed the Pocono Day Express, it was the last passenger train to run over the route of Phoebe Snow in the twentieth century.

Amtrak was facing budget cuts that threatened numerous routes across the country at that time, however. The addition of a new route, one which had not seen a passenger train in nearly a decade, was a low priority.

Proposals for service restoration
On January 25, 2008, New York Senator Charles Schumer announced that Amtrak and the New York Department of Transportation were studying a proposal to create a passenger rail line between Syracuse, New York; Binghamton; and Scranton, with service on to New York City via a restored Lackawanna Cut-Off.[citation needed] Unlike the original Phoebe Snow train, which terminated at the ferry terminal in Hoboken, the new service would reach New York's Pennsylvania Station via the Kearny Connection.

Although Schumer's proposal reportedly has been shelved in favor of a routing via Albany, New York, New Jersey Transit is pursuing a proposal to offer commuter rail service between Scranton and New York.

I struggle to see how this would be a quicker route than the Water Level Route. Maybe the logic would be to get Pennsylvania and New Jersey to pay for part of the route.

It's not any faster. The only way it would be faster is if the Cut-Off in NJ still existed, and even then, I doubt it.

Since the windy Erie Delaware Division and Susquehanna Division is in the only way to Binghamton directly....then you'd have to live with that. No offense to Senator Schumer. Then there's that NS problem.

Although Schumer's proposal reportedly has been shelved in favor of a routing via Albany, New York, New Jersey Transit is pursuing a proposal to offer commuter rail service between Scranton and New York.

Huh? Binghamton - Albany - NYC? That makes no sense at all. The ex-D&H seems a strange choice; if not the ex-Lackawanna via Scranton, surely the ex-Erie makes more sense than the old D&H?

charlesriverbranch wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:53 pm

Although Schumer's proposal reportedly has been shelved in favor of a routing via Albany, New York, New Jersey Transit is pursuing a proposal to offer commuter rail service between Scranton and New York.

Huh? Binghamton - Albany - NYC? That makes no sense at all. The ex-D&H seems a strange choice; if not the ex-Lackawanna via Scranton, surely the ex-Erie makes more sense than the old D&H?

It's impossible to run from Penn Station via the ex-Erie, AFAIK. Didn't the Erie run out of Hoboken?

Rockingham Racer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:56 pm

charlesriverbranch wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:53 pm

Although Schumer's proposal reportedly has been shelved in favor of a routing via Albany, New York, New Jersey Transit is pursuing a proposal to offer commuter rail service between Scranton and New York.

Huh? Binghamton - Albany - NYC? That makes no sense at all. The ex-D&H seems a strange choice; if not the ex-Lackawanna via Scranton, surely the ex-Erie makes more sense than the old D&H?

It's impossible to run from Penn Station via the ex-Erie, AFAIK. Didn't the Erie run out of Hoboken?

Erie ran out of Pavonia until 1956. Hoboken through 10/17/1960. EL used Hoboken the entirety of its existence.

Not sure I see where the D&H ever entered into the topic?

AS far as I can tell
a.) Binghamton news article about end of pass service 50 yrs ago
b.) Schumer looked into Syracuse-Binghamton-Scranton-NYC in 2008
c.) more recent NYS/Cuomo interest in high speed route via the NYC from Syracuse and/or Buffalo

Maybe I missed something, but never saw mention of D&H or Albany-Binghamton service?