Before the Viewliners, a VERY long time ago!

Hello all,

I have just a couple of quick questions.

(Note to moderators, I'm placing it here in the Amtrak forum because it is passenger related. Not sure if it is appropriate for this forum)

I was just rereading a couple of articles in the Summer 2008 issue of Classic Trains. In reviewing the floor diagrams for the various Pullman cars that have been built over the years, one item sort of stood out that has me a bit perplexed. In the older Pullman cars, in particular, the original 12-1 sleepers, no where is it identified which section was assigned to the crew (porter). Does anyone know were in the car the crew was accommodated in older heavyweight cars?

In cars built during the light weight era, there were accommodations built specifically for the Porter. The porter had his own room, usually located at the vestibule end of the car.

In the same token, do todays new viewliner sleepers have seperate crew quarters, or does the crew occupy one of the revenue rooms? I'm pretty sure all the Superliner sleepers have crew quarters in the lower level.

Well, that's all for now folks.

See ya all later........

Back in the heavyweight days, I don't think the Pullman porters had anywhere specific to sleep because they were expected to always be on duty, especially on trips that only took one night. On longer runs, I've read that what little sleep they got was in a men's lounge or smoking room after they finished the rest of their responsibilities like cleaning the car. Later on, the porters were treated better & got a place and time to rest. This was likely due to the Pullman porters unionizing, which coincidentally occurred at the same time as the first streamliners appeared.

On Viewliner floor plans, there appears to be a non-revenue 13th roomette at the end of the car across from the shower that is for the attendant. The lower level of a regular Superliner Sleeper has an Accessible Bedroom at one end and a Family Bedroom and 4 Roomettes at the other. I believe these are typically all revenue rooms. I think the car's attendant has an upstairs roomette (closer to most passengers) and other crewmembers sleep in the Transition Sleeper (before the Superliner II Transition Sleepers they used ex-ATSF Hi-level transistion dorm-coaches).

Amtrak used to run crew dorms on its single-level trains that were just 10-6 sleepers stripped of all the niceties. These days I believe the car attendant does occupy what would otherwise be a revenue room. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I remember there was a lot of discussion about this when the change was made, questions about whether Amtrak would really save as much in fuel and maintenance costs as they'd lose in revenue, also people pissed off that trains that needed to be booked months in advance now would just have one less room available.

westr wrote: I think the car's attendant has an upstairs roomette (closer to most passengers).

In Superliner Sleepers the car attendant is typically accommodated in Roomette 1 in the middle of the car in the upper level.

spacecadet wrote:Amtrak used to run crew dorms on its single-level trains that were just 10-6 sleepers stripped of all the niceties. These days I believe the car attendant does occupy what would otherwise be a revenue room. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I remember there was a lot of discussion about this when the change was made, questions about whether Amtrak would really save as much in fuel and maintenance costs as they'd lose in revenue, also people pissed off that trains that needed to be booked months in advance now would just have one less room available.

On the view liners the attendant always had a non revenue room across from the shower. The crew dorm was for car attendants, the dining car staff, and back in the day the cheif. There was even a small conductor cubby with a desk in some of the cars.

westr wrote: On Viewliner floor plans, there appears to be a non-revenue 13th roomette at the end of the car across from the shower that is for the attendant.

You are correct; in a Viewliner sleeper, the Car Attendant's room is directly across from the shower compartment at the blind end of the car.

As to lightweight sleepers, my second private car was the former New York Central "ST. REGIS RIVER", a 10 & 6 built by Pullman Standard in 1949. At the vestibule end of the car, directly across from the general toilet and the annunciator panel, was a porter's area. It had a seat, a small storage area and a fold down shelf that could be used for sleeping accomodations. It was a small space and a man above a certian height may have had to sleep at a diagonal to fit within the space. It also had heavy curtains that could be buttoned in place to screen the area from the hallway and provide some limited privacy for the porter. Today, this car is New York & Greenwood Lake business car CHESTNUT HILL.

In heavyweight Pullmans, such as a 12-1, the Porter's quarters was the couch in the Men's washroom.

However, before the end of Pullman company operations Dec 31, 1968, there was agreement with the BSCP (Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters) to provide the Porter with a room that otherwise would be revenue space.

Earlier in the Amtrak era, there were still some inherited Baggage-Dorms that may have come from Florida trains. The beds may have been 3 high per "section", with curtains. Some of the trains that carried a female nurse and/or hostess/stewardess had a small private room for her, jammed just like the conductor's office in some car with an odd floor plan. Very early, Amtrak may have tried putting crew in the Sections in a few inherited sleeping cars that had a variety of accommodations. Those cars didn't last long, and Amtrak never sold Sections as revenue space. Now, VIA Rail Canada still does, but they have replaced one of the 4 Sections in their sleeping cars with a new shower.
Some autobiographies of Dinning Car employees mention sleeping on the tables, but others mention a crew dorm car. Possibly sleeping car porters could arrange to cover for each others' cars while one of a pair of them caught a nap

Amtrak used to have a substantial number of baggage dormitory cars on their roster. There were more than 50 of these cars on the roster in 1980. They were numbered in the 1400 and 1500 series. Their ancestry was US Army (converted from hospital cars), ACL, ATSF, FEC, GN, NP, SAL, SP, UP. There were also some CB&Q dome coffe shop dormitory cars. Some were HEP'd and renumbered in the 1600 series; I think those were all Army cars.

I do remember some Amtrak lightweight sleepers with sections (such as CB&Q SILVER FLOWER series cars) where the sections were used as crew dorm space. I encountered one of those on the James Whitcomb Riley in the 1970s.

Some of the ATSF hi-level coaches were HEP'd and converted to coach dormitory cars to run with Superliners. In the 1990s Amtrak acquired Superliner II transition sleepers, the 39000 series cars, which were used primarily as crew dorms. Lastly, there were about 25 Heritage Fleet 10&6 sleepers converted for use as 2500 series crew dorms on eastern overnight trains.

Hello All,

Hello Mr. Westr, Mr. Norman, and Mr. Jhdeasy,

Thanks to all for the responses!

As to the 12-1 heavyweights, I agree with Mr. Norman, I believe the area for the Porter's quarters was most likely a part of the men's lounge. The problem is its been nearly 50 years since the last heavyweights roamed the rails in regular service, so the little details regarding their operation, if not passed on, could easily be lost to time.

I know on the Dover Harbor today, one revenue room is assigned to the crew. On heavyweights like the Dover Harbor, or the Kitchi Gammi Club, or any other car that had buffet's in them, it was most likely a car that had at least two crew members assigned to it when the cars were in regular service. It would certainly give credence to Mr. Westr's position that the crew was expected to be up and on duty throughout the run. I can't imagine the Pullman company not selling all six double bedroom's in the Dover Harbor to the public on peak travel days.

Returning to my first point about the little details of heavyweight opertions, (I'm hoping Mr. Jdheasy can help me out here) Does anyone know how the system worked when a passenger pushed the Porter "call button" to summon the Porter? I would believe that a light would light up somewhere (or maybe a bell would ring?) that would notify the Porter a passenger requested service. In all the heavyweights I have been in, I've yet to find an indicator panel that would have told a Porter, for example, the passenger in the upper of section 3 needs assistance. Does anyone know how the system worked?

Well that's all for now folks!

See ya all later.....

here is alink to the superliner manual from pullman ( formt he amtrak resources at the top of the forum )
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/sl-om.pdf
im sure it has a diagram of the call system , which i doubt has changed much form the old days . maybe smaller etc but the principle is probably the same .

jhdeasy wrote: As to lightweight sleepers, my second private car was the former New York Central "ST. REGIS RIVER", a 10 & 6 built by Pullman Standard in 1949. At the vestibule end of the car, directly across from the general toilet and the annunciator panel, was a porter's area. It had a seat, a small storage area and a fold down shelf that could be used for sleeping accomodations. It was a small space and a man above a certian height may have had to sleep at a diagonal to fit within the space. It also had heavy curtains that could be buttoned in place to screen the area from the hallway and provide some limited privacy for the porter.

I checked some Pullman blueprints for NYC post-war lightweight sleeping cars ... BAY (22 roomettes), RIVER (10 roomettes 6 double bedrooms), LAKE (six double bedrooms buffet lounge), PORT (12 double bedrooms) and CREEK (five double bedrooms buffet lounge observation) series cars ... the porter's section, when opened for use, measured 6'3" in length; mattress size was 27" x 72".

I wonder how those dimensions compare to the Budd Slumbercoach beds I have slept in? I remember the beds in Slumbercoach single rooms seemed narrow, rather than short, and the mattress seemed thin, but it was much better than a coach seat.

The Rising wrote: Returning to my first point about the little details of heavyweight opertions, (I'm hoping Mr. Jdheasy can help me out here) Does anyone know how the system worked when a passenger pushed the Porter "call button" to summon the Porter? I would believe that a light would light up somewhere (or maybe a bell would ring?) that would notify the Porter a passenger requested service. In all the heavyweights I have been in, I've yet to find an indicator panel that would have told a Porter, for example, the passenger in the upper of section 3 needs assistance. Does anyone know how the system worked?

I can provide some information, but from the perspective of lightweight sleeping cars.

The porter call buttons were electrically connected to an "Annunciator" system. There was a display panel in the hallway near the Porter's seat/section. It would indicate which room/location was calling for the Porter. By pressing a button, the Porter could reset the annunciator panel display when he responded to the passenger's call. There was an early trainline capability (less capable than Amtrak's 27 pin COMM trainline) that allowed two adjacent cars to connect their annunciator systems, so that if the Porter in the "01" car was away, the Porter in the "02" car could see the call indication, go to the adjoining car, check the location on its annunciator panel and take care of the passenger who called.

Back in the pre-HEP era, there was another trainlining capability that was more operationally important; it allowed crews to trainline the DC battery of two adjacent cars of the same operating voltage (32/64/110) when one of the two car's had an electrical problem, thereby allowing car A to supply electrical power to car B.

Amtrak Forum Moderator's Note:

I'm going to move this to Mr Benton's Rail Travel and Trip Reports forum, since it is really historic in nature.

I happen to have a copy of the 1953 Instructions to Conductors by the Pullman Company. Even by then, a standard upper berth in a primarily section car was allocated to the Porter. In cars without a Porter's Room, the railroads allocated space in advance, though generally, the Porter was to take the upper in any room he used.

I also have a copy of Harry Stegmaier's book on SP PAssenger assignments in the 50s. One of his sample pages is the allocation of space for 9-27 and 10-28 the City of St Louis/San Francisco Overland. Space for the Pullman Conductor and the various Porters is clearly denoted.