Railroad Forums 

  • Attica NS derailment 2/15/18

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

 #1461880  by KevinD
 
Winters Rigging (doing the work) is based only 45 miles away in North Collins.

You don't need a facebook account to click the other links, just decline the fb nag screen when it pops up and you can see the images full screen
 #1461883  by BR&P
 
KevinD wrote:Winters Rigging (doing the work) is based only 45 miles away in North Collins.
Image

They prepare like a fire department. The trucks are all loaded, acetylene bottles full, all supplies fully stocked. When they get a call, they are out of there and on the way pronto.

I was involved with a derailment on a regional out of state which had never used a railroad wrecking service. They put an engine on its side and this time they called Winters. The railroad's people were flabbergasted - "The trucks arrived, and within 20 minutes the sidewinders were unloaded, the booms were on, and they were clanking down the track toward the wreck!" Image

I have no idea just what the status of this NS wreck is, but usually the plan is to rerail anything which is not seriously derailed, and anything else is dragged clear of the roadbed so trackwork can start ASAP. They will come back for the derailed carcasses later, after traffic is moving again. I would not bet against tomorrow or Sunday for the first train through, depending on how NS prioritizes things.
 #1461887  by oibu
 
But there's a lot of roadbed to be put back in place before they can worry about track. And that's assuming they don't find anything beyond the superficial wrong with the integrity of the fill requiring extensive stabilization/correction/replacement. I don't know "on the ground" specifics, but based on what I see I would be surprised if they are even worried about track or trains before sometime next week.

This is not a grade-level wreck, so most of what is going on here has nothing to do with the actual track structure itself. Track will probably just be putting the icing back on the layer cake after it gets mixed, baked and assembled. But yes - the actual track repair is probably a day or so, give or take a bit.
 #1461890  by oibu
 
161pw165 wrote:From reports, multiple trains went over this area during the day and before the collapse. Also reported that they anticipate to have the track be in service tomorrow; though I tend to doubt it. Lot of heavy work to be done. Amazing they were able to get that much heavy equipment on site in 12 hours or so.
IMHO a track patrol should have been out specifically looking for sites of flooding/saturation/erosion/culvert failure, if the rain/snowmelt situation was nearly as bad in the area as has been characterized in the reports I've seen. Perhaps they were doing that, or had done it earlier and the situation changed, or they missed something- I don't know any details, it was just a general statement that whether or not it was or wasn't done, there are ways to avoid or minimize trains falling into holes, but it looks like this one did. A passing train crew isn't likely to be able to check those types of things other than going over something glaringly obvious and then realizing they are glad they made it through.

I'll say this- if they just throw some stone or compacted soil in the hole and start running trains tomorrow, I sure has heck wouldn't want to be anywhere near it!! I would be very surprised if they were able to get away with that, and I'm quite sure the state agencies and emergency management office would be right on it if they got word that movement of LPG and chemical loads were at risk of being moved over it without a full investigation and proper stabilization. It-could- be entirely superficial at track level at the top of the fill, but I would tend to suspect there is more going on than just some loose fill material at the top- although I suppose it is possible, especially with the freeze-thaw lately, that some saturated material just sloughed off the still-frozen fill beneath. If it is nothing more, then yes, it might only be a couple days. But even that is cause for further concern and inspection/investigation (and probably at least some severe speed restrictions until all has been checked and cleared).
 #1461894  by tree68
 
I"m trying to figure out exactly where this happened (besides "near Attica). The pictures don't offer any solid clues.

There is a stream that runs through the area where I think it happened, but until I get a better idea...
 #1461901  by C2629
 
The derailment is railroad east of East Main Street Rd. Up the hill between a quarter and a half mile from the JC 391 milepost.
 #1461909  by tree68
 
C2629 wrote:The derailment is railroad east of East Main Street Rd. Up the hill between a quarter and a half mile from the JC 391 milepost.
There is a small stream in that area without a name (on the topo map). Things have been thawing - might have been a collapsed culvert. We'll have to see.
 #1461912  by oibu
 
Well, technically it was their line to Buffalo with the actual Erie mainline continuing from Hornell west to Chicago via Olean and Jamestown- the modern-day "Meadville Line"/WNY&P RR .

But otherwise, yes.
 #1461918  by KevinD
 
tree68 wrote:I"m trying to figure out exactly where this happened (besides "near Attica).

X marks the spot

H is the farmhouse crew was evacuated to.

F is the field the locos were dragged to.
 #1461987  by KevinD
 
The water was flowing pretty good, which makes me think the arch is still intact (which bodes well for faster restoration), but I would put my money on something happening down stream, like a fallen tree dam, a beaver dam, etc, causing water to back up to the point the embankment became super-saturated until it slipped down. WNY is known for soil that does not hold up well when super-saturated. Very reminiscent of the maintenance issues with the Erie's River Line. As long as the ditches were cleared annually and the water allowed to run off properly, the soil comprising the cuts and fills of the River Line remained relatively stable. When Conrail came along and the "high maintenance" ditching/water runoff control stopped, within 2 years gravity had pretty much destroyed the River Line's track structure.
 #1461995  by johnpbarlow
 
As of 8:00AM Saturday, two stone trains are nearing Binghamton on the NS Sunbury line headed for Attica. The first train, symbol 920 led by NS6732, I believe is comprised of 5 cars with a conveyor. Have no description of following stone train except it is led by NS9724 and is being operated by a K84 crew local to Binghamton. Both trains are expected to pass non-stop through E Binghamton yard to CP-BD to get to the Southern Tier mainline to head west
 #1462013  by Farmer Joe
 
A few years ago there was a sink hole that almost swallowed a house in Attica. Soil conditions, especially this time of year are very soft. I have trouble with keeping a crush stone surface on my driveway. The stone just sinks into mud. This area is very wet. Thankfully this derailment wasn't worse and with a different/hazardous cargo.

Also, County Line Stone has been hauling stone to the site all night. An accident on route 20 and 238 in Darien has messed up that activity. They have to re route their trucks around that.
 #1462022  by BR&P
 
KevinD wrote:The water was flowing pretty good, which makes me think the arch is still intact (which bodes well for faster restoration), but I would put my money on something happening down stream, like a fallen tree dam, a beaver dam, etc, causing water to back up to the point the embankment became super-saturated until it slipped down.
I respectfully disagree. Downstream of that culvert is the big open field visible in the news videos. I can't imagine that field being filled up so deep that it would saturate the fill from that side. It would have required a giant lake. And the culvert outlet does not appear to have been covered up with great amounts of soil. I suspect one of two other scenarios.

More likely I'd guess, would be the culvert was plugged with debris either in the middle, or just upstream of its inlet. This would allow a large amount of water to accumulate on the UPstream side of the fill, saturating it and eventually washing it away. In cases where the water actually tops the embankment (which may or may not be the case here), once the water starts cutting the top, it allows increasing volumes to flow through the little channel. The more water moving, the more force to cut the notch deeper until the whole embankment is cut down, leaving the track in mid-air.

Another possible issue, and harder to see beforehand, is a case where a part of the roof collapsed mid-culvert. Material can drop straight down into the culvert, and if there is a rapid flow of water it can get washed out. Eventually the void above can get so big that the track structure is affected. This can be hard to spot sometimes, as from outside the embankment looks normal and you may have no idea there is a big empty pocket inside.

Obviously this is speculation on my part, but obviously SOMETHING similar to this came into play. Fortunately the results, bad as they were, were not worse.