Amtrak Tennessee Proposals: Memphis - Nashville - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta

Interesting story from Memphis on Amtrak pitching expanded service to the state. A day train from Memphis to Chicago and a new train from Nashville to Atlanta are mentioned as possibilities in the story (but there are very few details). This sort of expansion (entirely new routes in the South) was a surprise to me!

The expansion plan relies on additional federal funding Amtrak hopes Congress will approve in a revised Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act.

Lang said Amtrak could present its vision to Congress as soon as the spring, once it has secured partnerships with interested states.

"It's going to take anywhere from 12 to 24 months to redo the surface transportation bill," Lang said. "We think this presents us an opportunity to really transform the company."

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/ ... 477648002/

This is a really big deal. With the Gulf Coast proposal Amtrak demonstrated that southern states can and do support adding rail service. If Tennessee gains more service before Alabama there's going to be a lot of finger pointing in Montgomery.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:03 pm This is a really big deal. With the Gulf Coast proposal Amtrak demonstrated that southern states can and do support adding rail service. If Tennessee gains more service before Alabama there's going to be a lot of finger pointing in Montgomery.

If? Who was proposing the new trains and begging for money from Tennessee to pull it off?
Answer was Amtrak.

I personally would feel much better that the train will ever return if it was Tennessee begging Amtrak for more trains, not the other way around. Never-the-less, Amtrak proposes two wrong trains that would be extremely difficult for Tennessee to subsidize. The train Amtrak should have proposed to Tennessee was a train from Memphis to Nashville to Knoxville, and possibly to Ashville and eventually to Charlotte or Raleigh. At the least, from Memphis to Knoxville. A train that services three of the state's four largest cities.

What Amtrak is asking Tennessee to do, as far as Nashville is concerned, is for the state to reintroduce at the state's expense a shorter than the long distance train through Nashville that Amtrak dropped decades ago, much like the proposed New Orleans to Mobile train is a shorter version of Sunset Limited East.

What Amtrak is proposing for Nashville is a branch line off the Crescent, similar to the Heartland Flyer branching off the Texas Eagle. Oklahoma had to beg Amtrak to start this train, not Amtrak begging Oklahoma. It is far easier to get a state to subsidize an Amtrak train they though of initially, not the other way around.

What you are seeing is Amtrak begging for cash from southern states to be relevant in the South, where Amtrak has been killing trains for decades. Sorry Amtrak, you have waited much too long.

You might be surprised, E-Ron, to learn that not every Southerner thinks like you.

Here's a second article, with a poll of Nashvillains on where they'd prefer to take a train to:
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/ ... 458339002/

#1 city - Nashville-Chicago (it's a safe bet that Memphysicians think similarly or more so, given migration patterns, so this is 1 point for Amtrak)
#2 city - Nashville-Atlanta (Nashville-Atlanta is part of the proposal; another point for Amtrak.)
#7 city - Nashville-Memphis (ElectricRon's Choice. Anything else is insulting to us Southerners!)

Those polled were given 8 choices, so Nashville-Memphis finishing 7th is another point against Ron and for Amtrak, who win 3-0.

In reading the article, keep in mind that Gannett owns both the Memphis Commercial Appeal and the Nashville Tennessean. The article is from Memphis even though the poll is from Nashville. That was confusing to me at first.

It would be great to have a daytime train running from Memphis to Chicago. That would enable people who live in Illinois who are traveling to Memphis during the daytime another option as well as heading north. What would be nice is if the St. Charles Airline reverse moves are eliminated as that adds a lot of time to the schedule. Plus, it would be great to have speed increases along the former IC as their right of way is very straight in many areas and the stops are spread out.

ryanch wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:26 am You might be surprised, E-Ron, to learn that not every Southerner thinks like you.

Here's a second article, with a poll of Nashvillains on where they'd prefer to take a train to:
https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/ ... 458339002/

#1 city - Nashville-Chicago (it's a safe bet that Memphysicians think similarly or more so, given migration patterns, so this is 1 point for Amtrak)
#2 city - Nashville-Atlanta (Nashville-Atlanta is part of the proposal; another point for Amtrak.)
#7 city - Nashville-Memphis (ElectricRon's Choice. Anything else is insulting to us Southerners!)

Those polled were given 8 choices, so Nashville-Memphis finishing 7th is another point against Ron and for Amtrak, who win 3-0.

In reading the article, keep in mind that Gannett owns both the Memphis Commercial Appeal and the Nashville Tennessean. The article is from Memphis even though the poll is from Nashville. That was confusing to me at first.

Interesting poll. Amtrak is not proposing a new train to Nashville's #1 polling choice, just to it's #2 choice.
Why not to both #1 and #2?

Meanwhile, replacing a newspaper poll with politics from a state legislator in mind, would you vote to support with a yearly subsidy a train between 3 of your 4 largest cities, or to just one? Remember, you have to pass that bill through the legislature every year. Which route is likely to get more votes?

Nearby North Carolina is Tennessee's neighbor - how many trains to New York does North Carolina help subsidize vs how many trains remaining wholly within North Carolina? Illinois is another central state subsidizing Amtrak trains? Ask the same question for it? Do you find the answer surprising that both Illinois and North Carolina, along with New York and California, subsidize more trains that remain wholly within their state? I do not.

This quote stood out for me:

The government-owned passenger rail service hopes to add intercity routes throughout the U.S. and especially in the booming Southeast region.

Do we have an idea what those other routes are that Amtrak hopes to add?

Just because a state subsidizes a train wholly within its borders doesn't mean it's a good idea. Take the Empire Service for example. You have a NYC-Albany-Buffalo corridor that is really two totally different corridors that also ignores a third cluster of economic activity.

New York to Albany area is one corridor. It's state business and people going into NYC for business or pleasure from the Hudson Valley.

Buffalo to Albany is a separate one. The time to ride in from somewhere like Buffalo or Rochester to NYC is not really business competitive, so instead you see tourists and state business. Maybe some university students and GE business.

It totally ignores the economics nexus that Buffalo shares with Erie, Northwest Ohio, Meadville, and the nearby Canadian areas like Hamilton and Toronto.

Similarly, this proposal is a non-starter:

electricron wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:21 am I personally would feel much better that the train will ever return if it was Tennessee begging Amtrak for more trains, not the other way around. Never-the-less, Amtrak proposes two wrong trains that would be extremely difficult for Tennessee to subsidize. The train Amtrak should have proposed to Tennessee was a train from Memphis to Nashville to Knoxville, and possibly to Ashville and eventually to Charlotte or Raleigh. At the least, from Memphis to Knoxville.

This fits perfectly within the definition of "just becuase it's same state doesn't mean its' a good idea".

Memphis trades more with the river cities and Arkansas - Little Rock, Jackson MS, STL, Paducah, Jackson TN. The economy is based on shipping, steel, and farming. There is little tourist trade.

Greater Nashville has a booming economy from tourism, auto parts, and people escaping tax-heavy northern jurisdictions like Chicago and Detroit. It does not trade much with Memphis at all. Nashville is very much a fly-in city as there are no nearby bigger cities that do a lot of business with Nashville.

Knoxville and Chattanooga have the smokies and some decent manufacturing economy, but it's not necessarily Nashville-centric.

Finally you have the Smokies, and little rail traffic goes across them.

If you look at this map: http://www.nashvillempo.org/docs/Tennes ... report.pdf
You can see that Tennessee rail traffic is mostly North to South, with one major NS line from Memphis to Chattanooga that bypasses Nashville.

At the end of the day, I don't see Tennessee as much of a corridor state because it's really three different economic spheres that don't trade with each other. If we're trying to get congressional support for a national network of corridors and need some kind of service, continued CNO to Memphis and perhaps a regional train Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta makes the most sense from a "trading with" perspective.

electricron wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:21 am If? Who was proposing the new trains and begging for money from Tennessee to pull it off?
Answer was Amtrak.

I personally would feel much better that the train will ever return if it was Tennessee begging Amtrak for more trains, not the other way around.

This doesn't really bother me. It's just business development, something all businesses engage in. I'd rather see Amtrak striving to achieve new business, which means they have to craft a somewhat competitive offering, than just sitting around taking in their guaranteed $1.8b to run the Sunset and Starlight, which are not competitive with much of anything.

FatNoah wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:25 am This quote stood out for me:

The government-owned passenger rail service hopes to add intercity routes throughout the U.S. and especially in the booming Southeast region.

Do we have an idea what those other routes are that Amtrak hopes to add?

(Just guessing here) Given the suggestion of a Memphis-Chicago day train I would think a day train from Charlotte to Atlanta would make sense. The Nashville Atlanta train makes me think that an Atlanta hub is on Amtrak’s radar so I would also expect ideas like the following to be entertained:

Atlanta-Tuscaloosa (B’ham)
Atlanta-Jacksonville (via Savannah)
Atlanta-Knoxville (Tri-Cities if can be done cheaply enough)
Atlanta-Charleston (although getting SC on board is unlikely — is there a viable route that goes via Augusta?)
Atlanta-Columbus-Montgomery-New Orleans

Plus
Atlanta-Nashville
Atlanta-Charlotte

If Amtrak truely wants to provide decent corridor service in the Southeast then it needs to be built around Atlanta. I will admit that the station issues in Atlanta and Nashville and and track / capacity issues on many of the routes are daunting.

Other routes that I would like to see (but are less likely)

Charlotte-Charleston (via Columbia)
Wasington-Asheville (via S-line and Salisbury) This is a pretty thin business route (and very slow from Salisbury west) but it would be a good add for tourists on the national network and an S-Line shortcut (or Crescent route) might make it viable.

I would think that connections to Louisville would also be looked at

If Amtrak thinks they are going to see a big chunk of federal money for route development then surely some of it will go to filling out the trunk route from Richmond to Raleigh-Charlotte so the S-Line rebuild should see dollars and the early stages of SE(sorta)HSR should emerge from this.

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:35 amAt the end of the day, I don't see Tennessee as much of a corridor state because it's really three different economic spheres that don't trade with each other. If we're trying to get congressional support for a national network of corridors and need some kind of service, continued CNO to Memphis and perhaps a regional train Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta makes the most sense from a "trading with" perspective.

They aren't just economic spheres. Tennessee is so geographically and historically divided that they are legal entities, enshrined in the Tennessee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Div ... _Tennessee

And speaking as someone with friends from Memphis: as far as they're concerned, Chattanooga and Knoxville may as well be in Pennsylvania. I'm guessing the reverse holds true, too.

Ron, I thoroughly agree that there are political considerations that make an instate train more likely to receive funding. But that's a complaint that counts against Tennessee (and other states), not against Amtrak. As Tadman said, good on Amtrak for trying to promote a train that makes more business sense, even if it might not make as much political sense.

As to why Amtrak isn't proposing a Chicago-Nashville train, I think it's pretty obvious that the costs of a new Chgo-Memphis train (a mere extension of an existing train, on an existing pax route) or a new Nashville-Atlanta train (half the distance of N'ville-Chgo) are dramatically lower. My point in mentioning the popularity of Chgo-Nashville was to say that Tennesseeans seem to value Chicago as a prime destination in a way you weren't acknowledging in slamming Amtrak for their proposal, and that Chicago's popularity in Nashville almost certainly reflects similar opinions in Memphis which has much closer cultural and historic ties to Chicago. So it's another sign that the Amtrak proposal may resonate better with Tennesseeans, even if your proposal resonates better with politicians.

If I were Amtrak, I'd be bringing the Tennesseean poll to Illinois tourism officials. And to recruiters for universities in Illinois along this line as well. Or maybe commissioning a similar, inexpensive poll in Memphis, which would probably show even stronger numbers. It might be possible to get Illinois to pay for some track upgrades in-state, or at least get the Congressional delegation to seek Fed funding.

This does seem exciting. But a word of caution. Googling, one finds a similar article from 2014, when Amtrak made the same push, at least for Memphis. Amtrak's new financial situation makes something like this seem more plausible, but it's not as novel as the last day of posts might make it seem.

Ridgefielder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:20 pm They aren't just economic spheres. Tennessee is so geographically and historically divided that they are legal entities, enshrined in the Tennessee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Div ... _Tennessee

Now *that* is a trip.

In comparison, North Carolina (my home state) has the mountains, the piedmont, and the coastal plain. These are geographical regions, based on topography, geology, and climate. These natural factors have had a large historical influence on economic and social factors within each region, leading each region to have strong self-similarity - while differing significantly from the others. At times it feels like a grand division of sorts, but throughout the state's history, to the best of my knowledge, they never felt the need to go so far as to... codify this division it into law in any substantial way. There must have been some real animosity at some point to bring that about in Tennessee.

In NC, the Piedmont has sort of become the economic engine of the state, but I would say as a Piedmont dweller, I am happy and proud to share a state with the other regions - the mountains for outdoors stuff and the opportunity to cool off on hot summer days, and the coastal plain because that's where a lot of our food comes from, and of course the beaches.

People in the TN mountains mostly fought for the United States in the Civil War, as did many African American Tennesseeans (ie, arguably a majority of the state's adults opposed secession, as was certainly true in Mississippi and Alabama) while white folks in the center and west fought for the Confederacy. Lincoln toyed with creating an East Tennessee on the model of West Virginia.

So yeah, a pretty deep and at times bitter divide.

I am admittedly curious to what they want to do in terms of ATL to NAS. The old Floridian route would mean ATL, ATN, BHM, DEC & NAS. A non-Floridian route would be via Marietta / Chattanooga / Murfreesboro / Nashville.

Not sure what they'd do.