Amtrak Long Distance Fleet Replacement - Superliner Replacement - Bilevel or Single Level

The value in double deck equipment is a cost saving in maintenance. One pair of trucks (which is what drives maintenance costs) provides approximately 50% more capacity. Since maintaining equipment is the largest single category of expense that is powerful. (Combined with depreciation we can be talking about 40% of total operating costs). So all things being equal, one would expect single level equipment to bring a significant rise in operating costs.

Of course not all things are equal.

In regards to that 60% occupancy, that doesn't meant the car is not 100% occupied at points along the journey, it is just that the jigsaw puzzle of many stations means it is hard to get tmuch past 60% for a fully occupied long distance car.

NH2060 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:30 pm 2. I wonder if anyone at Amtrak has considered having a “berth car” or a section of each new sleeping car devoted to upper and lower berths. Granted they’re not roomettes, but they’re more economically priced and provide more privacy than coach. I booked a lower berth on VIA Rail from Vancouver to Toronto and I was VERY impressed with the level of comfort offered. And that was in an overhauled 1955 era sleeper. A 2025 era car would be vastly improved.

I think this is the direction Amtrak has to go. I see them in Japan and in Russia. You can offer a lower cost overnight ticket because you can get more people in the same car.

Another thing I want to see on new coaches, better ventilation. The last few times I've been on a train, it often feels like the air is very stale, compared to an airline where it's constantly being circulated.

Japan's Sunrise Seto/Izumo train sets are a good example (haven't seen Russia's but I'd imagine they're a bit dated). A "Single Twin" basically is the same as an Roomette, and I can see the "Solo" being adapted as well.

andrewjw wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:48 pm You don't need stairs and a lift in every car. If there's no services offered in the lower floor of most cars, just extra seating, then you could probably get away with lifts in half the cars and stairs in the other half, which wouldn't be any more space than they use now.

>>>lifts in half the cars and stairs in the other half<<< I strongly suspect that stairs are required in every car for emergency access and egress.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:12 pm Japan's Sunrise Seto/Izumo train sets are a good example (haven't seen Russia's but I'd imagine they're a bit dated). A "Single Twin" basically is the same as an Roomette, and I can see the "Solo" being adapted as well.

lol they are definitely not dated and frankly better than what Amtrak has to offer. there's generally 3 levels of service:

- bunk beds with no doors. this has 4 beds to a room and 2 beds parallel to the corridor
- bunk beds with closable doors, 4 beds to a room. 9 rooms per car.
- luxe bunk beds with closable doors, 2 beds to a room with shower + sink in the room. 8-9 rooms per car.
- some trains have an even higher luxury level with even bigger rooms (4-6 rooms per car)

None of these require buying out the whole room like Amtrak requires. The lower level beds are permanent couches because the "bed" folds down from the wall rather than "coming together" from two opposing seats like in the roomettes. The curtains on the window are a proper flat blind as opposed to the completely useless things on the Superliners. Plus they were all built in the past 15 years, rather than 50 years ago.

Well, I got to admit, that's putting ViaRail's equipment to shame. Extra points for putting the floor plan on the site (which I can't find for the Seto/Izumi).

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:28 pm So.... you're now going to have a passageway with adequate headroom at both levels to move between cars?

Or will customers on the upper level simply be trapped when they're in a car with only a lift and it goes out?

Yeah, operationally, that sounds like a mess.

The passageway would only be on the upper level, just like today. Why do you need a low-level passageway? Anyone who needs ADA access can be instructed to only board the cars with elevators.

The means of egress point seems likely a blocker on that idea, though punch-out windows with emergency ladders would probably satisfy that technically.

Amtrak reveals new long-distance trainset concepts at accessibility hearing

Amtrak presented two alternate designs for added ADA accessibilty through a "core" of the consist (10 cars for single level, 9 cars for bi-level), including having more than one accessible restroom and elevators at two points for boarding/deboarding.

The 10-car single-level trainset proposal includes:

1. Non-accessible coach, 2-2 seating.
2. Half non-accessible/half accessible coach, 2-2 seating; 32-inch path begins.
3. Non-accessible 1-2 seating/accessible coach.
4. Accessible coach (1-2 seating)/café
5. Accessible diner/galley
6. Accessible diner/lounge (diner section adjacent to galley in car 5)
7. Sleeping car, 3 accessible bedrooms, 2 non-accessible bedrooms; 32-inch path ends.
8. Non-accessible roomette sleeper
9. Non-accessible bedroom sleeper
10. Utility car (crew-baggage).

The 9-car bilevel trainset: non-accessible features on lower level listed first; top level accessible. accessible top level; non-accessible lower level

1. Lower: Non-accessible coach 2-2 seating
   Upper: Accessible seating, bathroom; 32-inch path begins.
2. (Elevator) Lower: Non-accessible 1-2 seating
   Upper: Accessible coach/bathroom.
3. Lower: Non-accessible coach.
   Upper: Accessible coach/café (1-2 coach seating—café at one end of the car)
4. Dining car with some accessible seating (galley below)
5. Lower: Sleeper, roomettes and family room.
   Upper: Accessible lounge (no exteriors shown)
6. (Elevator) Sleeper, lower: Roomettes and family room.
   Upper: Non-accessible (2 bedrooms); accessible (3 bedrooms); 32-inch path ends.
7. Lower: Sleeper, roomettes and family room
   Upper: Non-accessible bedrooms.
8. Lower and upper, non-accessible roomettes.
9. Utility car, Lower: Baggage
   Upper: Roomettes/crew rooms

For me: I get to update my concept consist...

At least someone took photos of the consists...

Thanks for posting this. Overall it looks like a really good solution and happily enables new bi-level equipment with just 2 elevators per train. I'm a little surprised they didn't make the lower level of bilevel cars 2 and 6 also accessible (giving a non-elevator option) but that's a minor detail.

I really like the concepts here. Also worth noting the straight stairwells which would feel much less claustrophobic. The "core" concept should still be easily scalable too either with existing equipment or new equipment to match the potential new designs. Getting these in service would free up the current fleet for extensive rebuild as well if they decided to keep some of that equipment for other services or to supplement the new concepts. I'm very interested to see how this all plays out, who bids, and if Amtrak ends up going with both concepts.

If the difference is only one car between bilevel and single level trainsets, that seems to blow up most of the efficiency arguments touted by some.

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It doesn't blow up the efficiency arguments -- no suggestion was made that those are equivalent capacity trainsets, nor that all trains would use these trainsets (image if they decide not to retain the Superliner fleet for just the Autotrain, the capacity of that train would be severely constrained by using one of these trainsets). The design of these trainsets does not appear (under this briefing) to preclude having longer or shorter trainsets.

Note that for the overnight trains out of NYC, the single level trainset is the only option that offers mobility through cars, and is likely length constrained (unless some stations are to be served by stopping the train there twice like the Silver Star did at Raleigh in 90s), and that where Amtrak shares platforms with commuter railroads using gallery cars or the Bombardier bilevel coaches (not the Bombardier multilevel coaches used by NJT), Amtrak can only offer near-level ADA boarding by using a bilevel coach with lower level boarding.

I think the idea is that only the “core” trainset is fixed. Additional coach and sleeping cars would be able to be attached to the endpoints of the core trainset via standard couplers like for the Auto Train.

Amtrak can only offer near-level ADA boarding by using a bilevel coach with lower level boarding.

Patently false. Mini-highs are relatively cheap and don't break down, unlike crank-o-matics and onboard elevators....



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