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  • Amtrak Service Suspended NYP-NHV

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1552286  by WhartonAndNorthern
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:56 pm
ACS-64s and Acelas can make it to HOB without issue, only the Arrows lack the voltage changer. The only wye
available would be West End, and that is an important junction between the M&E and Main/Bergen Lines.

Unless the MMC could be used to turn or service trainsets, but appears no loop or wye there.
You don't need a wye, just two adjacent tracks and the necessary switches. Amtrak's locos have dual cabs for this reason. In fact, that's how they change ends coming back North (err.. East) from DC.
 #1552311  by ExCon90
 
Actually, you come back North from DC until you get to Zoo; then you get to go either East or West. But even shifting the engine to the other end takes time, depending on the track layout and whatever else is going on--and how far the engine has to move away to get the signal to come back, and what other movements it's conflicting with in the process.
 #1552315  by NY&LB
 
ACS-64s and Acelas can make it to HOB without issue,
ACELA requires high level platforms
Last time I checked, Hoboken Terminal was all low level that would be an "issue"

We can all think of what is possible but where there is no contingency plan IN PLACE, none of the possibilities will ever happen.

BACK IN THE DAY, emergency plans could be put in effect "on the fly", people were allowed to THINK, that is not how things work today throughout society.
 #1552325  by mtuandrew
 
We’ve definitely discussed this topic plenty :wink: I’d typed out a long response, but here’s the only part that matters: the likely service patterns.

Short Term Blockage (under a week): annul PHL-NYP, ALB-NYP, and NHV-NYP with no alternate transportation.

Medium Term Failure (a few weeks): annul all service beyond NHV. Annul most service beyond PHL and ALB, and run Regional and Acela shuttle service PHL-TRE and ALB-POU. Let NJ Transit figure out access to New York.

Long Term Infrastructure Loss (months): Run limited Empire Service ALB-NYG. Annul all Acela service BOS-NYP and revive Metroliner service BOS-NYG*; also run limited Northeast Regional service BOS-NYG. Run limited Northeast Regional service and close-to-full Acela service WAS-NWK; cooperate with NJT to build out Waterfront Connection capacity, and with PATH to increase cross-Hudson throughput. Terminate any off-Corridor service at BOS, NHV, ALB, PHL and WAS.

*if Amtrak can figure out how to tow Acelas between New Rochelle and Grand Central, great! No need for Metroliner service. However, that seems to be a very non-trivial task on a daily basis, and Amfleet Metroliner service might be simpler.
 #1552331  by STrRedWolf
 
I'd tweak it a bit, to be honest. What if it breaks in the middle of the day and we're back to near-pre-pandemic levels?

Short term (under a week): Suspend service NHV-NWK. Have folks on North side transfer to Metro-North for NYG at New Haven(NHV) and Croton-Harmon(CRT). South side transfers to PATH at NWK or NJ Transit to Hoboken, bus/ferry bridge as needed. LD terminates at ALB/WAS/PHL/NHV. Keystone terminates at PHL. Lake Shore Limited all goes to Boston (no split at ALB).

Medium term (weeks): Suspend regular service NHV/ALB/PHL. Shuttle PHL-NWK, ALB-NYG, NHV-NYG. Continue bus/ferry/PATH bridge. Continue LD termination/reroute.

Long term (months): Annul Acela BOS-NYP. Run Regional ("Bostonian") service BOS-NYG. Enhanced Empire Service only ALB-NYG. Continue PHL-NWK shuttle, bus/ferry/PATH bridge, LD termination/reroute. BILL CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH
 #1552343  by mtuandrew
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:27 pmI'd tweak it a bit, to be honest. What if it breaks in the middle of the day and we're back to near-pre-pandemic levels?

Short term (under a week): Suspend service NHV-NWK. Have folks on North side transfer to Metro-North for NYG at New Haven(NHV) and Croton-Harmon(CRT). South side transfers to PATH at NWK or NJ Transit to Hoboken, bus/ferry bridge as needed. LD terminates at ALB/WAS/PHL/NHV. Keystone terminates at PHL. Lake Shore Limited all goes to Boston (no split at ALB).
I like this in theory.

In practice, I don't think Amtrak could pull itself together in a few days to run shuttles down to Albany to Croton-Harmon, but maybe they'd prove me wrong. I wouldn't mind CRT and it would definitely speed up travel time, but if Amtrak turns at POU it can run more frequent shuttles with the same crew. Up to you which one makes more sense.

As for a south side problem, the reason I don't think NWK is feasible at first is because New Jersey Transit is going to be scrambling to find homes for all its NYP-bound trains. Trying to terminate Amtrak there will just cause more congestion while NJT is attempting to annul, terminate at NWK, or funnel their trains through Swift Interlocking to HOB. They'd need time to work out their solution.
STrRedWolf wrote:Medium term (weeks): Suspend regular service NHV/ALB/PHL. Shuttle PHL-NWK, ALB-NYG, NHV-NYG. Continue bus/ferry/PATH bridge. Continue LD termination/reroute.
Solid.
STrRedWolf wrote:Long term (months): Annul Acela BOS-NYP. Run Regional ("Bostonian") service BOS-NYG. Enhanced Empire Service only ALB-NYG. Continue PHL-NWK shuttle, bus/ferry/PATH bridge, LD termination/reroute.
Is your Bostonian your equivalent to my Metroliner?

I think we could reopen a limited WAS-NWK line of Regionals and a near-full complement of Acelas by a couple weeks into a long-term shutdown. NJT would have their emergency plan in place, and ideally both agencies would be hard at work with effecting tunnel repair, breaking ground on a north leg of Waterfront, and filling in the canal to add more Hoboken tracks. That leaves space for both Amtrak and NJ Transit to use the NEC Main beyond Swift as a place to reverse their NWK-terminus trains (perhaps at Secaucus.) Add back a few HAR-PHL-NWK Keystone Service trains while you're at it, bumped up to ten cars apiece; they're already push-pull anyway.
STrRedWolf wrote:BILL CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH
100% agreed! They can fight it out with New York, New Jersey, MTA, NJT, and the Port Authority later.
 #1552348  by STrRedWolf
 
mtuandrew wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:36 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:27 pmI'd tweak it a bit, to be honest. What if it breaks in the middle of the day and we're back to near-pre-pandemic levels?

Short term (under a week): Suspend service NHV-NWK. Have folks on North side transfer to Metro-North for NYG at New Haven(NHV) and Croton-Harmon(CRT). South side transfers to PATH at NWK or NJ Transit to Hoboken, bus/ferry bridge as needed. LD terminates at ALB/WAS/PHL/NHV. Keystone terminates at PHL. Lake Shore Limited all goes to Boston (no split at ALB).
I like this in theory.

In practice, I don't think Amtrak could pull itself together in a few days to run shuttles down to Albany to Croton-Harmon, but maybe they'd prove me wrong. I wouldn't mind CRT and it would definitely speed up travel time, but if Amtrak turns at POU it can run more frequent shuttles with the same crew. Up to you which one makes more sense.
I think they will have enough equipment on Long Island that they can go through the Yonkers wye to get over to the Hudson line and be that shuttle. Anything else needs to go over the CSX lines to get to Albany and be used.

I thought CRT would be more appropriate because POU is 2 tracks and CRT is 4. I think you can turn a shuttle better at CRT. Plus, it's a Metro-North yard!
As for a south side problem, the reason I don't think NWK is feasible at first is because New Jersey Transit is going to be scrambling to find homes for all its NYP-bound trains. Trying to terminate Amtrak there will just cause more congestion while NJT is attempting to annul, terminate at NWK, or funnel their trains through Swift Interlocking to HOB. They'd need time to work out their solution.
I looked at that, and then I looked at Hoboken (which is already clogged with NJT by itself) and Secaucus Junction. Hoboken you have PATH and a one-shot to 33rd. Secaucus you add a transfer to NJT trains because no PATH, and it's not an Amtrak stop. NWK is an existing Amtrak stop. Turn 'em at NWK, let NJT have Secaucus and Hoboken. The only bottleneck is PATH, buses, and ferries at Hoboken.
STrRedWolf wrote:Long term (months): Annul Acela BOS-NYP. Run Regional ("Bostonian") service BOS-NYG. Enhanced Empire Service only ALB-NYG. Continue PHL-NWK shuttle, bus/ferry/PATH bridge, LD termination/reroute.
Is your Bostonian your equivalent to my Metroliner?

I think we could reopen a limited WAS-NWK line of Regionals and a near-full complement of Acelas by a couple weeks into a long-term shutdown. NJT would have their emergency plan in place, and ideally both agencies would be hard at work with effecting tunnel repair, breaking ground on a north leg of Waterfront, and filling in the canal to add more Hoboken tracks. That leaves space for both Amtrak and NJ Transit to use the NEC Main beyond Swift as a place to reverse their NWK-terminus trains (perhaps at Secaucus.) Add back a few HAR-PHL-NWK Keystone Service trains while you're at it, bumped up to ten cars apiece; they're already push-pull anyway.
[/quote]
Amtrak doesn't have EMU's. So? We'll fake the Metroliner! NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW!!! :-D

But I can't see overloading NWK. After a few weeks you'll get enough data to see about running regular to Newark... but then NJT is going to be shoving as many trains into Hoboken, and they can't shove all of them in. I doubt they'll expand Hoboken -- NJT's strapped for cash even before the pandemic. So you got to reduce Amtrak and NJT trains to fit much limited capacity.

I do see turning the Keystone into that shuttle service, though. PHL has enough capacity to turn into a terminus. I would also not fault Amtrak on trying to run some LD's to PHL or even HAR. But in a time where there's no money to expand without major government bailouts (and don't assume it'll happen), you gotta deal with what you got.
 #1552351  by JimBoylan
 
Based on what Amtrak did after the most recent Shore Tower - Frankford Jct. wreck, if the North River tubes fail, Amtrak will just discontinue service between Philadelphia and New York, with no alternate transportation provided.
 #1552477  by Jeff Smith
 
EAST RIVER: From the east I'd turn trains at Stamford; it's an express ride cross-platform to NYG. Or, you could put a P32 on the head end.
EMPIRE: I'm not sure what the issue here is; this is not an East or North River issue. But, say, the Spuyten Duyvil bridge fails, then just run a couple trains into NYG; certainly, no need to annul as far north as Poughkeepsie.
NORTH RIVER: I like the idea of annulling Amtrak at Newark for the access to the PATH. NJT gets sent to Secaucus or Hoboken. Fantasy: Revive all the old lines to the waterfront, rebuild the terminals, and a full rebuild of the CNJ.
 #1552481  by Pensyfan19
 
Jeff Smith wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:28 am Oh yeah, let's revive ARC!
American Rail Club?

Also, it is possible to revive some of the waterfront terminals. NJT is expanding Hoboken into the former Lackawanna freight terminal.
 #1552494  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Pennsy, ARC - Access to the Region's Core.

This was the first plan for a new Hudson River tunnel which actually had begun construction during Gov. Christie's terms.

Here is earlier discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=42611

The tunnels would be for NJT's exclusive use and were to terminate at an NJT station located near Herald Square and beneath any existing infrastructure - or otherwise, 100ft underground.

Federal funds had been secured and construction had started (bet somebody around here knows where to look), but Gov. Christie decided that the State's portion was too high and he needed those funds to repair highways.

So that was that.

The Gateway proposal makes far more sense; only problem, it was supposed to be complete long about now.