Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:36 am Not the same train then. There's a lot more than one train that leaves Chicago, the specific train the first stop would take 4 hours to walk to. I forget which one it was, it might have been an Illinois state train.

Mr. Approach, your are correct. That would be La Grange (LAG) 14mi and 4hr 15min walk from CUS. The only trains stopping there are Illinois sponsored 380 and 383, and if they are ever to run again, 381 and 382.

hrsn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:09 am

Amtrak has all sorts of DEI and Financial data available in their reports section, plus host railroad report cards. But nothing showing their own mechanical dispatch reliability.... I've submitted a FOIA for that, since they don' t think that needs to be public.

Thank you for taking the trouble! Let's hope they don't respond with, "We don't track that information [because it might be embarrassing], so we have nothing for you."

Trust me it is tracked and reported by facility each and every night. As an example the clerks in Albany keep track of Empire and Downeaster service trains. This is reported not only to the company but the superintendent of Albany. A paper comes out daily showing the OTP of trains in our service area both expected and actual. A clerk friend of mine was in serious trouble and almost brought up on charges because he missed a single delay on a train. Conductors are spoken to about poor time keeping. I hear the yardmaster give break downs of delays if a train gets stuck in Albany. This is just a small example of what goes on I have not even gotten into the shop/power desk/yardmaster overnight conversations. Because stuff does go bump in the night.

If the information is given by Amtrak it may be with their codes which hopefully is explained. What it not may not break down is Charger vs. P42

We'll see if they break it down by fleet...

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ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:36 am

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 1:33 pm Mr. Approach, Google says more like 10hrs (29 miles) CHI-NPV.

Not the same train then. Theres a lot more than one train that leaves chicago, the specific train the first stop would take 4 hours to walk to. I forget which one it was, it might have been an Illinois state train.

Very possible. Woodlawn in four hours?

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:11 pm With certain exceptions, Amtrak's Buy America statute requires Amtrak to buy only “(A) unmanufactured articles, material, and supplies mined or produced in the United States; or (B) manufactured articles, material, and supplies manufactured in the United States substantially from articles, material, and supplies mined, produced, or manufactured in the United States.” 49 U.S.C. 24305(f)(2). Amtrak's requirements apply without regard to the source of funds; if it does not receive an exemption, it may not acquire goods that are not consistent with Section 24305(f)(2), even if it does not propose to use Federal funds. However, FRA may exempt Amtrak from this requirement when one of the exemptions of 49 U.S.C. 24305(f)(4)(A) or (B) have been met. Section 24305(f)(4)(A)(iii) permits an exemption when, “the articles, material, or supplies, or the articles, material, or supplies from which they are manufactured, are not mined, produced, or manufactured in the United States in sufficient and reasonably available commercial quantities and are not of a satisfactory quality.” This is typically referred to as a “non-availability exemption.”

In addition to the Buy America statute, FRA's action is subject to Executive Order 13788, Buy American and Hire American (April 18, 2017). Consistent with Executive Order 13788, FRA evaluated Amtrak's request to determine whether it had sought maximize the use of goods, products, and materials produced in the United States.

I think I know the intent of the Buy American act... is that we didn't get junk.

Compare with what MBTA got: MBTA blasts Chinese company’s ‘failure’ with new Orange, Red Line train production

Days before the MBTA pulled nine new Orange Line cars from service due to mechanical problems, it sent a scathing letter to CRRC, describing the Chinese company’s failure to produce quality trains and meet delivery deadlines.

“Given the breadth, number and age of chronic quality issues that have remained unresolved, it becomes abundantly clear that CRRC MA’s management has completely abandoned its core responsibility and commitment to lead, monitor, mentor and support quality management functions within CRRC MA,” MBTA Deputy Director Mark DeVitto said.

“This situation has already caused major disruptions, rework and delays in production and delivery of Orange and Red Line cars.”

Yeah, apparently Chinesium cars have quality issues...

The intent of the Buy American act is specifically that when we buy junk, it's "proudly built in the USA" and not elsewhere (or put another way that Federal money is not spent buying high quality Japanese or European products manufactured in Japan or Europe).

CRRC is a popular manufacturer overseas in all sorts of markets (which may be based on price), but is not known for their lack of quality as the Chinese railroads want reliability just as much as anyone else (remember they bought GE equipment until they could build their own of sufficient quality). However, the MBTA contract was a "Buy Massachusetts" contract (with the intent of creating a MA-based rail manufacturing capability) so whoever one that contract had to open a new factory in Mass, and MBTA got "made in Massachusetts quality".

It seems that every overseas manufacturer of rail equipment struggles when having to create a new manufacturing operation in the USA.

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:30 am The intent of the Buy American act is specifically that when we buy junk, it's "proudly built in the USA" and not elsewhere (or put another way that Federal money is not spent buying high quality Japanese or European products manufactured in Japan or Europe).

CRRC is a popular manufacturer overseas in all sorts of markets (which may be based on price), but is not known for their lack of quality as the Chinese railroads want reliability just as much as anyone else (remember they bought GE equipment until they could build their own of sufficient quality). However, the MBTA contract was a "Buy Massachusetts" contract (with the intent of creating a MA-based rail manufacturing capability) so whoever one that contract had to open a new factory in Mass, and MBTA got "made in Massachusetts quality".

It seems that every overseas manufacturer of rail equipment struggles when having to create a new manufacturing operation in the USA.

Correct. Buy American means the manufacturer’s experienced teams overseas at best get to train Americans to build the equipment.

RandallW wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:30 am However, the MBTA contract was a "Buy Massachusetts" contract (with the intent of creating a MA-based rail manufacturing capability) so whoever one that contract had to open a new factory in Mass, and MBTA got "made in Massachusetts quality".

It seems that every overseas manufacturer of rail equipment struggles when having to create a new manufacturing operation in the USA.

I guess we have to admit that there is very little railcar manufacturing job experience in the area. CAF and Alstom have the same problems finding experience workers in upper New York state.

I wonder to what extent Stadler has sought business from Amtrak?

This is a Swiss concern, which has a subsidiary, Stadler USA, with a manufacturing facility in Salt Lake City. They have orders from Caltrain, the agency that operates the SF-San Jose (former SP) Peninsula Line, as well as another agency operating from San Bernardino.

I ridden in their equipment on the private sector Westbahn GmbH (lest one wonders: Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung,” or an LLC over here); Salzburg-Linz and Salzburg-Munich. Seems OK to me.

Buy America only works if the factory can stay open. Something I am reminded of every time I drive by the shuttered Nippon Sharyo Factory.

I am all for trying to keep jobs, but these half-assed solutions of a foreign company trying to set up a shop here in the United States to manufacture from US sourced components simply is not the same product that gets sold in the RFP process.



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Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:36 am I wonder to what extent Stadler has sought business from Amtrak?

This is a Swiss concern, which has a subsidiary, Stadler USA, with a manufacturing facility in Salt Lake City. They have orders from Caltrain, the agency that operates the SF-San Jose (former SP) Peninsula Line, as well as another agency operating from San Bernardino.

I ridden in their equipment on the private sector Westbahn GmbH (lest one wonders: Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung,” or an LLC over here); Salzburg-Linz and Salzburg-Munich. Seems OK to me.

I've wondered that, too.
They have plenty of options that would work well. (remember when amtrak was looking at going to EMU/DMU, for some services?)
They are well built and engineered. They operate in cold weather.
And the facility isn't going anywhere. (*)
For that matter, I wonder why they don't aggressively go after commuter agencies, as they have gear suited to Regional Rail service, with traps that one person can open for a whole train.


(*) well, there's the issue of the great salt lake drying up and causing toxic dust clouds, but that's not for another 20 years.

Mr. Scratchy, without pulling this discussion too far off-topic, let's ask the question "If going by train from Miami to West Palm, who would you prefer to ride - Amtrak or Brightline"?

I don't think Amtrak would get too many votes.

But over there, Westbahn, with their Stadler EMU sets, competes "virtually head-to-head" with OBB; only reason for inserting "virtually" is that Westbahn serves Wien-Westen, which is an "adequate station" located some three klicks West of the "Stadtmitte", whereas of course, the OBB serves the magnificent Hauptbahnhoff (about 1.5 klicks South of "Stadt...") and further continues directly to the airport. Other main stations - Innsbruck, Munich, Salzburg, and Linz, are the same for each carrier.

I'm sure it is safe assumption that just like Amtrak and the host roads, there is the "who's got priority on the OBB owned tracks". On a Westbahn journey, an English speaking Conductrix (married to a retired US Air Force officer) said to me "if they pull it too often, we see them at Federal Court, and they get fined".

Westbahn fares are notably less than are OBB. If all you want is a ride and 2nd Class will do, Westbahn is your best bet. Now if you want 1st Class, and especially if you desire to imbibe with a "half" (375ml) of Gruner Veltliner and if you want an apparently "expensive and not too good" meal served at seat, then go with the OBB Rail Jet. On that point, Westbahn offers 1st Class as well, but only slot machine snacks.

So much for an Austrian travelog; understand if this is killed - especially since it's really all moot now that Amtrak has cast their chips to replace their entire "conventional" fleet with Siemens equipment.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:43 am I guess we have to admit that there is very little railcar manufacturing job experience in the area. CAF and Alstom have the same problems finding experience workers in upper New York state.

The same with Rotem's South Philadelphia assembly shop. But there is a "made in PA" builder: Brookville which does streetcars and LRVs. Getting into heavy rail seems something they have yet to do and I'm not sure they have stainless welding/fabrication capability.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:16 pm Mr. Scratchy, without pulling this discussion too far off-topic, let's ask the question "If going by train from Miami to West Palm, who would you prefer to ride - Amtrak or Brightline"?

I don't think Amtrak would get too many votes.

What if you change that to "Miami to Orlando"? Amtrak seats LOOK a lot more comfortable for the 5-6 hour trip but I haven't experience Brightline so I am just surmising. Amtrak seats are wider, more cushioned and probably recline more. Also you would be facing forward which is a big deal to me.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:22 pm

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:16 pm Mr. Scratchy, without pulling this discussion too far off-topic, let's ask the question "If going by train from Miami to West Palm, who would you prefer to ride - Amtrak or Brightline"?

I don't think Amtrak would get too many votes.

What if you change that to "Miami to Orlando"? Amtrak seats LOOK a lot more comfortable for the 5-6 hour trip but I haven't experience Brightline so I am just surmising. Amtrak seats are wider, more cushioned and probably recline more. Also you would be facing forward which is a big deal to me.

Amtrak seats LOOK more comfortable, but in a brightline train, you will not smell the cattle farm stench from the toilet tank.