Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

This discussion amongst "those who do this stuff for a living" makes me wonder how can Siemens get away with this crap over here?

I've been going overseas to Salzburg a lot of late to "get my fix" of Classical Music during the Summer (outdoor concerts "don't cut it" with me). This also gives me the opportunity to ride in Siemens equipment, as I also take day trips about Austria Germany, and Italy. To me, as a paying passenger, Siemens equipment is flawless.

So why they can apparently "peddle junk" over here to Amtrak escapes me.

How might any of us here feel when our Doctor gives us "a ticket to ride" the "MRI, or CT, Express", and as you go in, you're looking at Siemens (my hospital has GE)?

(I may have mentioned this before) My company sells niche software to multiple governments and some commercial entities. Due to US government export restrictions, we sell functionally identical but completely different software to other governments and commercial entities, and the teams that work on software for the US Government are not allowed to share work with the teams working on software to everyone else and vice-versa--note that my company is not subject to "Buy America" rules, but to other controls.

My understanding is that Amtrak's purchases are subject to "Buy America" rules which have the same effect as the export controls my company is subject to, which means that Siemens can't just import locomotives from Europe, but has to reimplement a number of things. It could also be that if Siemens shared technology with China or relied on a Chinese manufactured part, it may also need to be reimplemented because of other rules concerning procurements using Federal funding. If Amtrak were able to purchase without using Federal funding, they may have wound up with locomotives that were much closer to the Vectron designs than they did.

I think the NJT ALP-46s were not built with Federal funds as they were built in Germany (and are essentially German locomotives with minimal changes to be "road legal" in the USA).

Im not sure how much that holds true, buy america for sure but the 600 and 601 were completely built, assembled and initially tested in Munich Germany where Siemens is headquartered. The SIBAS 32 locomotive main computer system is off the shelf from germany, the software initially was as well, but has been modified by American Siemens employees, who have zero experience with the german units and were hired just for the US projects, as far as i know.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:27 pm I think the NJT ALP-46s were not built with Federal funds as they were built in Germany (and are essentially German locomotives with minimal changes to be "road legal" in the USA).

So were the ALP44s, directly imported from Sweden. The ALP45s have carbody in Wroclaw, assembly in Kassel.

These were funded with cross-border bank financing, likely also some NJ transportation funds.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:15 am Im not sure how much that holds true, buy america for sure but the 600 and 601 were completely built, assembled and initially tested in Munich Germany where Siemens is headquartered.

I thought they were also from Sacramento as well. Both have a 6/2013 build date. They were tested there in 2013.

The first 10 bodyshells were fabricated in Germany while the Sacramento plant was being tooled up. Final fit and assembly of 602- up was at sacramento, bodyshells 609-670 were made in Sacarmento. I know the person who designed the body shell structure at the german plant, and personally did some of the fab work on it. I can see if i can get pictures of the assembly from the german plant.

Messrs. Approach and Randall W, while your knowledge of the design of the overseas sourced rail equipment Amtrak has been acquiring of late, it would appear that these builders would be harming their interests if they built flawless equipment for use over there (Railjets), yet thought they could export "junk" over here.

Once again, allow me to note when "Doc" (and your medical insurer) gives you that ticket for a "ride on the MRI Express" and the last thing you see is Siemens as "the train pulls out of the station", how much confidence can you have in the results of your little "excursion"?

"Buy America" may mean raw materials such as steel were milled over here and with American workers turning nuts and bolts, overseas sourced builders had best be prepared to have enough English speaking personnel on the ground over here to properly oversee the production and maintenance of their equipment.

From the reports at this topic, such appears to be contrary.

The problem is not that "English speaking personnel" are needed -- its that people willing to live and work in America are needed, and as a former president complained, English speaking Europeans tend to like staying in Europe, so Siemens has to build a workforce essentially from scratch (or pull it from their other transit work forces). You saw CAF had similar problems getting people to just "turning nuts and bolts" when building the Viewliners.

I can't find mention of Amtrak California, Coaster, ACE, MARC, or Brightline having similar issues other than one oblique comment on this topic about Brightline. Fundamentally, without reporting of users having issues (or even with other Amtrak operations having issues), I'm not certain Siemens has produced junk, but that there is some disconnect in how maintenance should (not) be performed at one customer.

Yeah, I'm not convinced the Siemens units are junk either. A few anecdotal reports need to be backed up with actual data to convince me that it's not just malcontents looking for things to complain about.

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An entire Facebook page put together by engineers that run them to let the folks that don't know about ALL the issues they are having. Yup its a conspiracy. Sorry, I don't do the Book of Faces but have many friends that do. If you wish I could jot down some hard facts from the pages of malcontents.

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:29 am I can't find mention of Amtrak California, Coaster, ACE, MARC, or Brightline having similar issues other than one oblique comment on this topic about Brightline.

Lest we not forget, for equipment that never leaves Florida and, hence, is hard pressed (maybe during the Xmas Vortex) to operate at below freezing temperatures, the only "maintenance problem" confronting Brightline result from those two ton objects operated by folk for whom "Stop, Look, Listen" are not in their lexicons. On that point, I'm unaware of anywhere Brightline operates that there is an ungated X-ing.

I thought crossing gates were merely a suggestion that one decide whether to gamble on crossing even when they're down! All kidding aside, this is part of the reasons that LIRR eliminated most if not all it's mainline grade crossings in Nassau County while adding a 3rd track and rebuilding several stations. Death toll on LIRR will have dropped considerably as a result. Brightline is said to still have this problem, gates or not. But you're right, it seldom has heavy snow and super cold weather on its routes. Just hurricanes, tornadoes, sink holes, and the like. Though as has been noted, they do run 2 locos per train. And it's not Amtrak.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:06 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:42 am Yeah, I'm not convinced the Siemens units are junk either. A few anecdotal reports need to be backed up with actual data to convince me that it's not just malcontents looking for things to complain about.

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An entire Facebook page put together by engineers that run them to let the folks that don't know about ALL the issues they are having. Yup its a conspiracy. Sorry, I don't do the Book of Faces but have many friends that do. If you wish I could jot down some hard facts from the pages of malcontents.

I know within the past week, I have shoved 2 of them into the shop for water pouring into the cabs… Can’t wait to see what a few more years of abuse will turn out, the window and door seals on some are crap!

A bad problem that has nothing to do with software. I wonder if parts purchasing is based on lowest price regardless of quality. I'd imagine that with all the vibration in a diesel loco, that such seals would need to be much higher quality than, say, my house window seals.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:06 pm

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:42 am Yeah, I'm not convinced the Siemens units are junk either. A few anecdotal reports need to be backed up with actual data to convince me that it's not just malcontents looking for things to complain about.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

An entire Facebook page put together by engineers that run them to let the folks that don't know about ALL the issues they are having. Yup its a conspiracy. Sorry, I don't do the Book of Faces but have many friends that do. If you wish I could jot down some hard facts from the pages of malcontents.

Sounds interesting, but no.

I want to see the number of delay events and minutes attributed to locomotive faults/failures by fleet, region.

Amtrak has all sorts of DEI and Financial data available in their reports section, plus host railroad report cards. But nothing showing their own mechanical dispatch reliability.... I've submitted a FOIA for that, since they don' t think that needs to be public.

If someone wants to PM me links or PDF's that show that type of objective data, great. I've seen too many rants on the Book of Faces and elsewhere that will illustrate that week's shop queen or horror story, but it's hardly what I'd consider objective unless you can show the impact on delay minutes/events side by side with normal operations to balance things out.

BTW, the drivers shown in the OTP report cards all seem to be either other train interference or signalling. I couldn't find a single route where equipment was a driver for delays.

As Mr. Photobug notes at his immediate message, there is a third market out there for locomotive parts. I had to hire on to learn there was such for parts other than EMD or GE, and the MILW most definitely made use of such. They didn't have much choice for their Fairbanks-Morse power that was in service "during my day".

But I would like to think that, for motive power still under warranty and with the builder holding maintenance contracts with Amtrak, the use of such parts is limited.