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  • Amtrak Profit Center- Auto Train

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1605134  by Arborwayfan
 
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Greg Moore wrote:But, that said, really your bigger catchment basin is NYC metro area and I doubt you'd get folks driving 2 miles north to save driving south, even if it saved them time and effort in the long run.
On the one hand, you're probably right about greater NYC. Someplace down by Newburgh would be attractive to a much bigger market (and some of the Greater Boston market might still brave I-84 through Connecticut (or go around by I-90 and the Taconic State Parkway or I-87).
 #1605158  by electricron
 
Every 6 months or so a new thread is started about extending the Auto Train further north into New England.
Everytime people jump on and suggest why not, it is a great idea! Everytime someone like me will jump in and remind everyone that the train can only go so far in a day, there are clearance issues with tunnels, that it will NEVER work.
Do all the new posters ever take the time to look for older threads?

The Auto Train has been around for over 50 years, starting and ending at the exact same stations. It works, Why mess up something that works?
 #1605172  by scratchyX1
 
electricron wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:12 am Every 6 months or so a new thread is started about extending the Auto Train further north into New England.
Everytime people jump on and suggest why not, it is a great idea! Everytime someone like me will jump in and remind everyone that the train can only go so far in a day, there are clearance issues with tunnels, that it will NEVER work.
Do all the new posters ever take the time to look for older threads?

The Auto Train has been around for over 50 years, starting and ending at the exact same stations. It works, Why mess up something that works?
And lets not forget what happened when the Autotrain company tried to add a route, in the 70s..
 #1605174  by Greg Moore
 
Ayup, and exactly nothing has changed in 50 years.

Yes, I get that we rehash this topic over and over again and that can be frustrating. But equally frustrating is "That was tried once 50 years ago, so it's doomed to fail if something new is tried again."
 #1605305  by electricron
 
Greg Moore wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:53 am Ayup, and exactly nothing has changed in 50 years.

Yes, I get that we rehash this topic over and over again and that can be frustrating. But equally frustrating is "That was tried once 50 years ago, so it's doomed to fail if something new is tried again."
At least propose something different that could work and not the same expansion shot down 50 years straight.

Major fact many ignore completely
Speed = Distance / Time.

These are measurable facts along railroad rows. The track distances, the train speeds, and therefore the elapse times of a successful schedule have not changed for 50 years.

You want to extend the train further north on the NEC, a few things must be done to prepare for it. Increase the train speed everywhere above 79 mph while pulling freight cars full of automobiles. That will require a change in Federal law and the FRA regulations, much less finding cash and willing States to help fund it. No increase in train speeds should mean to everyone that the elapse time and distances will remain the same. Increase tunnel heights on the NEC. How many tunnels, how much money, how many States will be willing to pitch in funding? Will Maryland be willing to help if the new northern Auto Train station is not in Maryland? Will North Carolina be willing to pitch in without an Auto train station?

Get real folks. It has been the same for 50 years for valid reasons that you cannot just sweep under a rug.
 #1605384  by eolesen
 
We have people routinely crying out for re-regulation after 50 years, electrifying lines which have no business being electrified, and reverting the long distance "experience" to what it was 80 years ago...

Why should Autotrain be any different?...
 #1605478  by Literalman
 
An Auto Train north of Washington would, I think, need three consists. However, the trains need not comprise bilevel passenger cars and trilevel auto racks. In the past, Amtrak used single-level passenger cars and bilevel autoracks on Auto Train. I expect that it could do so again. So, using three consists of Viewliner sleepers and diners and Amfleet II or other single-level coaches, another Auto Train could originate in northern New Jersey. And maybe the consist could be tacked on to a Silver Service train. When I first moved to Virginia in 1991, I used to see the Star and Meteor with 18 cars each, so I imagine it's still possible, and since the Auto Train part of the consist doesn't need to be at the platforms at any stations other than the Auto Train terminals, maybe the train could be something like 24 cars long and not need an engine crew besides that on the Silver Service train. If the New York–area Auto Train needed to be a separate train, I think it could be low-level cars and avoid the clearance problems.
 #1605481  by lordsigma12345
 
What Mr. Norman said earlier…..if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. It’s basically the only revenue positive operation outside the corridor (technically the only right now period as the NEC is still carrying an operating loss since the pandemic.) I think some of the loss on the NEC is due to strategic discounts and low fares to try to draw new riders in - taking a loss to try to draw new people in. I’m sure the hope is to try to get back to revenue positive.
 #1605486  by gprimr1
 
So the title of the thread is "Amtrak Profit Center-Auto Train."

If Amtrak is making money off the Auto Train, it sounds like it's a concept that works, so wouldn't it make sense to explore how it can be expanded either at Lorton or elsewhere?
 #1605499  by Gilbert B Norman
 
First, I'm pleased that at this topic, we are of mind that "if it ain't broke...."

There are other AT related topics at this forum, some which are advocate a Coast to Coast AT....nah!!

But first for ready reference, let's go overseas:

https://www.nightjet.com/en/reiseziele/ ... /innsbruck

Ring up the Hamburg-Innsbruck NJ 40491. I observed the inbound consist at Innsbruck last Saturday Aug 20. While they pulled the four auto carriers before I could take a photo of them, they were bi (not tri; which I've never seen over there) levels carrying eight autos each much as depicted at the linked site. The absence of any protective siding would concern me. Of course, since all but one car in the train were Second Class, seats or Couchettes, the autos were more likely Skodas (a Czech make now owned by VW) than Bennies.

Now "meanwhile back in the States", I highly doubt if there is some kind of Boston-Wash "Night Owl AT" that could be feasible. Grief, considering how many negative comments the "reincarnated Night Owl" attracted both here, other rail discussion sites, and Trip Advisor, COVID gave it a "mercy killing" and Amtrak is not likely to consider any resurrection of such.

As I've noted here, from my twenty-four AT trips made over the years ("I'm done"; the $1100 "when and how I want to go" fare simply is not worth it to save 400 miles of driving and no time whatever), "arewethereyetitis" becomes quite endemic if AT hasn't arrived by Noon. The passenger base is not comprised of railfans, or even non-fan train riding lovers. It is simply people, often going for extended stays, such as "the winter" and want their own Bennie, Caddie, or Lex - often loaded to the gills with stuff, rather than Mr. Hertz's (nowadays quite overpriced) "wind-up toy" to use when "down below".

Now, if someone were to put "a gun to Amtrak's head" and said "you will establish some East-West Auto Trains", I've suggested here at the other topics, "Auto Train Service" adding auto carriers to existing trains over the following:

Galesburg-Irondale (Denver outskirts)
Galesburg-La Junta
Albuquerque-San Bernardino

San Bernardino simply so anywhere in the LA Basin, and even The Meadows, can be readily accessed.

Thoughts: especially since AT is now Amtrak's only "profit center".
 #1605504  by STrRedWolf
 
I think that's the idea here: Expand it to New York (or close to it).

As discussed before, there's a few problems: The endpoints need to be built or expanded; the trains need to fit, be routed to fit, or the route needs to be changed to allow it; getting CSX to go along with it; and getting the timing (and thus the logistics) down.

Other city pairings outside of Florida... I'm not so sure of. I'd like a study of such a deal to see what the population would want. Would a cross-country DC-to-LA auto train be viable? Would folks want to connect and transfer to such a train from a New York to Sanford train? There's some logistical concerns there.
 #1605510  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Wolf, earlier in the topic, you carefully outlined all the potential clearance points running along the Corridor to the "New York area". Now you immediately address running along the one-time Royal Blue Line now owned by CSX, NS, and NJT.

OK, Chessie is digging out the Charles Street tunnel on her own, presumably so she can handle double stacks out of the Port of Baltimore, and Virginia Ave around The District for same. I'm not sure what will happen with Landover (B&O PRR X-over). Now will Topper be "enthused" allowing this AT to run over, first, his RDG, and then connecting to his LV?

And finally, we have the need for three sets rather than two, as well as the issue I addressed that an NY area origin would adversely affect the business it has from points away from the Corridor anywhere East of Harrisburg and Syracuse.

Again: "if it ain't broke..."
 #1605563  by STrRedWolf
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:29 am OK, Chessie is digging out the Charles Street tunnel on her own, presumably so she can handle double stacks out of the Port of Baltimore, and Virginia Ave around The District for same. I'm not sure what will happen with Landover (B&O PRR X-over). Now will Topper be "enthused" allowing this AT to run over, first, his RDG, and then connecting to his LV?
No, of course. No need to elaborate on that question. Why ask it?
And finally, we have the need for three sets rather than two, as well as the issue I addressed that an NY area origin would adversely affect the business it has from points away from the Corridor anywhere East of Harrisburg and Syracuse.

Again: "if it ain't broke..."
I doubt anyone wants to tinker with the Auto Train's current end points, so it would be 3-4 consists for it's current operations (they did get the auto racks repaired from the derailment north of Sanford, right?). Keeping those operations and expanding with more consists between different city pairs is what is being discussed.
 #1605577  by electricron
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:32 am I doubt anyone wants to tinker with the Auto Train's current end points, so it would be 3-4 consists for it's current operations (they did get the auto racks repaired from the derailment north of Sanford, right?). Keeping those operations and expanding with more consists between different city pairs is what is being discussed.
The existing Auto Train stations are very busy from train arrival to departure every day. from am to pm when running on time. While trains may arrive early, they more likely arrive late. Any other consist sharing the existing train stations would have to be displaced to an earlier or later time slot, with additional staffing.
Which new city pairs? To be possible using just two train consists, the elapse time and rail distance would have to be similar to the existing Auto Train, 855 rail miles and 17 hours (10 am arrival, 5 pm departure).
Northeast to Midwest Auto Train:
New York City to Chicago has 959 rail miles and elapse time around 20 hours. 3 hours and almost 100 rail miles too long.
Midwest to Gulf Coast Auto Train:
Chicago to New Orleans has 930 rail miles and elapse time around 19.5 hours. 2.5 hours and 80 rail miles too long.
Midwest to Rocky Mountains Auto Train:
Chicago to Denver is 1038 rail miles and elapse time around 18.25 hours. Over 1 hour and 179 rail miles too long.

Using Amtrak's other long distance train ridership from 2020 Rail Passenger Association
DC to Orlando on Auto Train = 236,000 on Auto Train alone.
NYC to Chicago = 8,472 passengers
Chicago to New Orleans = 11,183 passengers
Chicago to Denver = 62,524 passengers
While there may be many more passengers visiting New York Penn and Chicago Union Stations, this is the ridership riding the train between the city pairs listed.

How far out will be the reach of the auto service area to the Auto Train stations. The reason the ridership is so high for the Auto Train is its stations service areas. Lorton draws from the southern New England and Mid-Atlantic areas, with a population way over 57 million, while Sanford draws from the entire State of Florida with a population of 21.7 million.
Virginia 8.5 million, Maryland 6 million, Delaware 1 million, Pennsylvania 12.8 million, New Jersey 9.3 million, New York 20.2 million = 57.8 million. Note, 57 million does not include all of New England nor all of the Mid-Atlantic states.
If you think New York is too far a drive from Lorton, dropping 20.2 million from 57.8 million still leaves 37.6 million.

What would you consider the population of a potential Auto Train station near Chicago? Around 47 million?
Michigan 10 million, Ohio 11.7 million, Indiana 6.7 million, Illinois 12.7 million, Wisconsin 5.8 million = 46.9 million
What would you consider the population of a potential Auto Train station near Denver? Around 12 million?
Colorado 5.7 million, Wyoming 0.57 million, New Mexico 2.1 million, Utah 3.2 million = 11.6 million
What would you consider the population of a potential Auto Train station near New Orleans? Around 13 million?
Louisiana 4.7 million, Mississippi 3 million, Alabama 4.9 million = 12.6 million

Florida's over 20 million is about twice as much population as the other prospects excluding Chicago. And Florida has dozens of major tourist destinations the others can not compete with. Likelyhood of as much success as the existing Auto Train, zero.

Dig up some data that disagrees with me, data not opinions.
Last edited by electricron on Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.