• Amtrak/LIRR Moynihan Train Hall

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

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  by Ridgefielder
 
Kilo Echo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:32 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:33 am
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:44 am So everything was initially third rail including the tunnels and Sunnyside? Then I have to guess that there had to be an engine change or at least a motor added just outside of the North River tunnels or in Newark. Interesting.
Worse. You had to switch trains from steam to electric at the Manhattan Transfer (no, not the jazz vocal group).
The transfer at Harrison, N.J. allowed the PRR entry into Manhattan by train. It eliminated the ferry transfer at Jersey City, long a source of annoyance for Alexander Cassatt.
So far as I know, Manhattan Transfer was an *engine* change, not a change of trains. Outbound trains would be hauled through the tunnels by the PRR's big DD1 boxcab 3rd rail electric motors, which would then wait to bring the next inbound train back through. Same thing happened on every other railroad accessing Manhattan Island-- at New Haven and Danbury on the NH, North White Plains and Croton-Harmon on the NYC, Jamaica on the LIRR.

On the New Haven, a practiced crew could make the change in ~5mins. I'm guessing the same held true on the Pennsy.

Note that when Penn was first opened, the only service coming in from the west was long distance. Commuter runs continued to terminate at Exchange Place in Jersey City until after WW2.
  by Kilo Echo
 
Ridgefielder wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:02 pm So far as I know, Manhattan Transfer was an *engine* change, not a change of trains.
That was my impression, as well. (Compelling passengers to change trains for the short stretch to Penn Station wouldn't have made much sense.)

There were, however, two high-level island platforms in Harrison that allowed passengers to transfer to the H&M (I believe).
  by CNJGeep
 
electricron wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:48 am The GG1s were replaced with 65 AEM7s. SEPTA and NJT are still using their AEM7s on the NEC today. I'm not sure what the status of MARC's AEM7s are today.
Amtrak bought 70 ACS-64 locomotives for the NEC which have been in service since 2013. SEPTA has bought an additional 15 ACS-64s. MARC and NJT have not bought any yet.

Here are the subtotals once more:
139 GG1s
65 AEM7s
85 ACS-64s
NJT never had AEM-7s, they had the more advanced cousin, the ALP-44, and SEPTA has not used theirs in passenger service (or, for that matter, on Amtrak at all) since Autumn 2018. It is a tossup whether they will see service on the gel trains next fall. MARC's four AEM-7s sit at Riverside Yard in Baltimore, unlikely to turn another wheel.
  by electricron
 
CNJGeep wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:07 pm NJT never had AEM-7s, they had the more advanced cousin, the ALP-44, and SEPTA has not used theirs in passenger service (or, for that matter, on Amtrak at all) since Autumn 2018. It is a tossup whether they will see service on the gel trains next fall. MARC's four AEM-7s sit at Riverside Yard in Baltimore, unlikely to turn another wheel.
Thanks for the correction and update. While it is true NJT never used or owned AEM7s, they did lease seven from SEPTA - but never used them.

Per Wiki, "Seven of the remaining SEPTA AEM-7s were leased to NJ Transit beginning in late December 2018 for the purpose of allowing NJ Transit to roster additional locomotives equipped with positive train control (PTC) in order to meet a deadline for operating PTC-capable equipment. However, they were never used and subsequently returned. SEPTA now uses them exclusively in work service."

So SEPTA is still using theirs, although not pulling passengers coaches anymore.
  by lensovet
 
I sent feedback to NJT through their site that they should update the NYP station map to include the Moynihan concourse and platform connections. Hopefully they can do that by the end of the month or something.
  by alewifebp
 
Kilo Echo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:32 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:33 am
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:44 am So everything was initially third rail including the tunnels and Sunnyside? Then I have to guess that there had to be an engine change or at least a motor added just outside of the North River tunnels or in Newark. Interesting.
Worse. You had to switch trains from steam to electric at the Manhattan Transfer (no, not the jazz vocal group).
The transfer at Harrison, N.J. allowed the PRR entry into Manhattan by train. It eliminated the ferry transfer at Jersey City, long a source of annoyance for Alexander Cassatt.

The Pennsylvania Railroad had to overcome a number of challenges to cross the Hudson by rail. A tunnel under the river was not practicable for steam locomotives, and the steep grade required to reach a well-ventilated, street-level station on Manhattan's West Side would be difficult.

Although Gustav Lindenthal had proposed a gargantuan North River bridge, a visit by Mr. Cassatt to the Gare d'Orsay in Paris convinced the PRR president that an electrified rail tunnel was a superior option. (Mr. Lindenthal eventually did build a span for the Pennsy, viz. the Hell Gate Bridge.)

Charles McKim had to design a station with boarding platforms three levels down from the street. He lowered the concourse and waiting rooms one level, and created an exit level between the main concourse and the platforms. He made his ceilings soar to further reduce the perception of a low track level.
Crossing the Hudson via tunnel even with electrics was not an easy feat either. A pretty complex (for the time) vacuum system was required to build the tunnels. The large bridge structure that would have certainly solved the capacity problems of today would have also changed a very large part of the area west of Penn Station.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Matt Johnson wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:20 am In any case, now I know this fantasy would never have come to fruition!
Always interesting how these "fantasy artists" tend to leave out the little details such as catenary.

But I suppose something along those lines could have happened if Jackie Kennedy were in the preservation business during '63. For most of those first eleven months, lest we forget she did have another full time avocation.

Incidentally, the glass tiled flooring was for real, I can well recall dragging my duffel bag after alighting from the Washingtonian August '56 from Kapitachuan Club PQ over such. Not my idea of fun; maybe you could ask my Mother (Greenwich) or Father (Tuxedo Park) why they thought four weeks of "sport" is what their progeny needed. But bring a shovel as you'll need it to get those six feet down.
  by Kilo Echo
 
alewifebp wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:24 am Crossing the Hudson via tunnel even with electrics was not an easy feat either. A pretty complex (for the time) vacuum system was required to build the tunnels. The large bridge structure that would have certainly solved the capacity problems of today would have also changed a very large part of the area west of Penn Station.
Remarkably, only two people died in the construction of the North River Tunnels. On the other hand, construction problems that included cracks, floods, and fires claimed lives by the score in the East River Tunnels.
  by nkloudon
 
>>There were, however, two high-level island platforms in Harrison that allowed passengers to transfer to the H&M (I believe).<<

I recall seeing pictures of Manhattan Transfer with high-level platforms, this was the transfer point of H&M which had its own separate terminal in Newark before the completion of the current station. Also, Manhattan Transfer is shown as a passenger stop in pre-electrification schedules.
  by Ridgefielder
 
nkloudon wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:35 pm >>There were, however, two high-level island platforms in Harrison that allowed passengers to transfer to the H&M (I believe).<<

I recall seeing pictures of Manhattan Transfer with high-level platforms, this was the transfer point of H&M which had its own separate terminal in Newark before the completion of the current station. Also, Manhattan Transfer is shown as a passenger stop in pre-electrification schedules.
The Hudson & Manhattan was a PRR subsidiary. Hence the shared ROW into Newark Penn. For a passenger heading to Lower Manhattan (particularly prior to the construction of the 7th Ave IRT in 1917-18) changing at Manhattan Transfer was more convenient than going all the way into Penn.
  by bostontrainguy
 
alewifebp wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:24 am Crossing the Hudson via tunnel even with electrics was not an easy feat either.
Maybe you shouldn't build the most populated city in the USA on an island???
  by CTG
 
lensovet wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:31 pm I sent feedback to NJT through their site that they should update the NYP station map to include the Moynihan concourse and platform connections. Hopefully they can do that by the end of the month or something.
It will be interesting to see if NJT does that or not. NJ and NJT chose not to contribute to the construction of Moynihan Train Hall (MTH) and NJT train information is not available on monitors within MTH. Also, with many of NJT's trains departing from tracks 1-4 and those tracks being not easily accessible from MTH, it would be a mistake to encourage their less savvy riders to use MTH. Their more savvy riders will figure out how to use it anyway whether it is on the online maps or not.
  by ExCon90
 
Ridgefielder wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:02 pm
nkloudon wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:35 pm >>There were, however, two high-level island platforms in Harrison that allowed passengers to transfer to the H&M (I believe).<<

I recall seeing pictures of Manhattan Transfer with high-level platforms, this was the transfer point of H&M which had its own separate terminal in Newark before the completion of the current station. Also, Manhattan Transfer is shown as a passenger stop in pre-electrification schedules.
The Hudson & Manhattan was a PRR subsidiary. Hence the shared ROW into Newark Penn. For a passenger heading to Lower Manhattan (particularly prior to the construction of the 7th Ave IRT in 1917-18) changing at Manhattan Transfer was more convenient than going all the way into Penn.
During part (maybe all) of Manhattan Transfer's existence there was a baggage room at the east end of the eastward island platform (PRR to the left, H&M to the right as you faced east), from 7 to 10 a.m. at which passengers from the west and south could, on alighting from their train, check their hand baggage to Penn Station or, for an extra charge, to any hotel or other address in Manhattan, then take the next H&M to Hudson Terminal, since in those days most business appointments were in lower Manhattan. At the end of the day they could go to Penn Station or their hotel and find their suitcase waiting for them.

In the Triumph series volume on New York are some great track and signal diagrams and photographs of the surrounding trackage. (In the Official Guide schedules Manhattan Transfer had a reference mark indicating that the station was only for transferring between PRR and H&M, with no outside access.)
  by lensovet
 
I guess, but anyone can use DepartureVision on their phone…it's 2021 for crying out loud.

And their current map shows all tracks, including LIRR and subway service and entrances/connections…to which NJT contributed absolutely nothing. i don't see why funding would make any impact on whether they include this information. if anything, they should be interested in making this available to reduce crowding, especially given the current environment.
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