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Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1567862  by eolesen
 
That pipe dream isn't too far fetched compared to what the UK, Germany, and a few other EU countries have been doing with climate change taxes.

In the UK, it's £80 on a coach ticket from the US to UK, jumping to £180 if you're in premium economy, business, or first. That's stopped us from flying to the UK since 2004, since we don't have an extra $500 lying around. US-Germany climate tax is only €40 per person in coach, but that's still more than I'm willing to pay for climate when Ireland or Holland only charge around €8 per person...

There was a study that showed if the UK were to reduce that APD tax to something more reasonable, they could see a GDP increase up to 0.5% from increased tourism. They know it's holding people back.

Air travel is already taxed at the Federal level by 7.5% (it used to be 10%), which is 7.5% more than Amtrak is taxed right now. Maybe it's time to start taxing Amtrak fares?...
 #1567865  by David Benton
 
John_Perkowski wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:15 pm
David Benton wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:32 pm It would seem to be a good time to relook at the DMU concept for some of these routes. An auto/ quick coupling system would allow a lot more options, to connect more cities. As usual for me, extensive thruway buses would create a useful network.
David, in case you’ve not heard, the President’s intent is to move the US from fossil fuels as an energy supply.
Great news. Hybrid emus then. Either way the concept of been able to split and cover more routes is what I mean.
 #1567897  by west point
 
This time is Easter. However As such most trips were sold out and it continues to Tomorrow ( Tuesday ). What needs looking at is how many bookings for next month. Maybe it is time for more service as soon as crews can be requalified. It has been reported that Delta air had to cancel some 200 flights due to lack of pilots being requalified ? I do not know how many days that covers or what crew bases.

The problem of restarting Amtrak service is the need for any route to get enough qualified crew for each crew base to start more service. I suspect we may see some cancellations due to lack of crew. Amtrak only needs for 1 or more to get sick and there goes the train offs.
 #1567923  by jsmyers
 
Arborwayfan wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:07 pm How frequent would you say service needs to be to
1. justify building and maintaining a separate passenger line
2. give enough freedom that a big chunk of the population will come to think of the train as being a reasonable, or even the obvious, way to make a certain trip ("frequency is freedom" is a great line; so many kinds of trips are easier with frequent public transp than they are by car, even some kinds of hiking trips)
3. make rail travel seem important in its own right to ordinary people, rather than having it always appear as some kind of sop to poor people, people with certain disabilities, environmentalists, and railfans?

The flatland parts of the western routes have plenty of space to add parallel tracks along much of their routes, Frontrunner style, which is just as good as rebuilding a separate parallel route, or even better, because the cost of things like grade crossing signals, drainage, etc., can be shared. In the mtns, not so much.
That's a good question and I've been pondering it.

First of all, let me make sure to give credit for "Frequency is Freedom" to where it is deserved. I came to it through the writings of Jarrett Walker, a transit planning professional in Portland: https://humantransit.org/2011/12/how-fr ... eedom.html

More about Jarrett.

I think there is an inverse relationship between appropriate frequency and the distance (or time traveled). A couple of analogies:
  • An airline might have one or two flights a day overseas, but will not do well without having a flight during every hub pulse (maybe 3-4 per day) to a major city 500 miles away.
  • In public transit there is a general rule of thumb that a bus route that operates every 15 minutes or less is frequent, but that's not frequent enough for shorter trips and may be more than passengers expect for an express bus or a commuter train.
  • A cruise line might send out a boat per day from a busy terminal, but a ferry, such as the Mackinac Island Ferries in Michigan are going to be every 30 minutes or so.
So I think the answer to the question is what is the likely travel distance on that route?

In my opinion, appropriate minimum train frequency for any service should be at least two trains per day at a given point on the route. What the state on Minnesota is doing with the Empire Builder should be replicated nationwide because I don't think one departure per day in each direction makes for very marketable service (especially if it is at 3 am). That is not a service that deserves a fully-dedicated passenger infrastructure.

But I don't think there are many places in the country that this type of service should be the goal or expectation. The Empire Builder route between Grand Forks and Spokane is probably a good example where that makes sense. The Overland Route through WY is another. Salt Lake City to Reno is pretty devoid of people too. There are others; but even the people who live in the wide open spaces in the west deserve better train service.

Taking MT, for instance, the North Coast Limited was a 2300 mile transcontinental train taking almost 2 full days. It might make sense to operate another long distance train on that that route, but to me its a no-brainier to offer day-time service between Billings, Bozeman, Butte, and Missoula. That's a total distance of 355 miles. The schedule linked above averaged 46 mph through that stretch (about 7:45 total trip time). The nearest cities are 95 to 140 mile apart.

I'm going to assume that a passenger only line with modern equipment could make that trip at an average of 55 mph. If departures were offered every 3 hours, only five passing sidings would be needed along the entire route. This sketch yields a 6:27 end to end schedule and four full-corridor round trips and an additional 2 trains per day in each direction starting from the middle cities of the corridor. It would take 6 sets of equipment (with pretty crappy utilization and extremely long turns).
Image

Shifting the schedule to 2.5 hours between departures allows the same 6 sets of equipment to provide an additional full-corridor round trip and have more efficient turns (~1 hour) and would also require five sidings. (Though in different locations: One would be very close to Butte; I think it is ideal to have the passenger train meets be at or near stations.).
Image

Note that by starting with 5 hours between departure and only 3 trainsets, you can get about half of this service with only two sidings. That might be a good incremental start while some of the infrastructure is being finished.

The type and amount of traffic on a corridor should set the equipment type, and there is no reason that some of these trips can't start or end further west (Spokane?) or east (Bismark?). A lower density corridor like this might be a good candidate for a DMU, but then again, most modern DMUs aren't set up to be as comfortable for longer journeys.

By now, you're probably thinking I've lost my marbles because I'm advocating for high frequency corridor service in Montana. In terms of priority you are absolutely right! This service wouldn't and shouldn't be the highest priority. But is was a simple example to illustrate how passenger-only tracks can provide a lot of service with largely single-track operations.

I also realize as I finish this that the more active rail line today goes through Helena rather than Butte, but I don't think that substantially changes the illustration. (oops)

In the case of a low traffic line in the west somewhere, it might be possible to run trains of this average speed that frequently without having passenger-only tracks, but trying to replicate something similar in the east (say between Toledo and Pittsburgh) would not be possible without dedicated tracks--not to mention that by getting out of the mountains, average train speed can be much higher (70+ mph including stops), making the capacity problem of mixed speeds much worse.

To boil all of this down to a direct answer to your question, for rail journeys between 1 and 6 hours, I think that 3 hours between departures is a workable minimum that both justifies the infrastructure and makes the service a viable first transportation option. Better frequency (just like higher speeds) should be the goal, but that seems like a good point to aim a corridor service at.

Furthermore, I believe it should be the plan in the US and Canada to implement this type of clock-face service everywhere cities and towns are within these distances and where rail lines exist (or can easily be built). Naturally, some of these fruits hang quite a bit lower than others.
 #1567924  by jsmyers
 
David Benton wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:04 pm An interesting read.
Good points about fixing slow points . Changing to 10 mph track to 20mph track saves as much time as changing 79 mph track to 158 mph track , mile for mile .
Do you have a map of the Lackawanna cutoff ?
Thanks. I've seen a lot of maps of the cutoff.
 #1567925  by jsmyers
 
eolesen wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:41 pm Depending on the length of the line and the other costs like fuel and labor, frequency isn't the question but how many pax per year you can attract and how much you're willing to commit in order to subsidize the losses...
Those are important considerations of the economics, but I think the cart is before the horse a bit. How many passengers can you expect to attract without frequency and at freight train speeds?

Or maybe a better ways to state it is this: What percentage of potential passengers can you attract without frequency and at freight train speeds?
 #1567931  by eolesen
 
jsmyers wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:00 pm How many passengers can you expect to attract without frequency and at freight train speeds?

Or maybe a better ways to state it is this: What percentage of potential passengers can you attract without frequency and at freight train speeds?
If we're going to play "cart before the horse", then you really need to first figure out how many potential passengers are there in the local market, which goes back to my Walmart Analysis (how many Walmarts within 20 miles of the station?). Walmart is an expert at lower income demographics, and they won't build multiple stores unless there a critical mass of people to shop multiple stores...

If a community can't support a Walmart, they're probably not going to generate a couple dozen rail passengers daily, let alone on multiple frequencies. If they've got 5+, you might be able to make 2-3 frequencies work if you're talking about a six hour maximum transit time to the nearest major city. Anything longer than that, people are going to drive or fly.

David, your comment about hotel rooms is entirely appropriate for some places, but I'd say that's going to be the exception (e.g. Las Vegas, Branson) and outside those types of destinations, I just don't see a lot of people taking a train to other high-hotel room concentrations like those bordering a national park. Yosemite, Zion and Grand Canyon simply aren't a walkable experience. You'll see 10% of what is possible (and 90% of the crowds) if you rely on the transportation available.

If you're going to spend $300+ on a rental car and another $500+ on train fare, you might as well drive your own car or even rent one, and have a better touring experience. My son and his family just spent $1000 on a rental sedan to drive to the beach and back for a week. Flying plus renting a car would have been far more expensive, and their own sub-compact car would have been torture. Amtrak wasn't even a consideration, due to no service within 100 miles of their destination...
 #1567950  by jsmyers
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:58 am If we're going to play "cart before the horse", then you really need to first figure out how many potential passengers are there in the local market, which goes back to my Walmart Analysis (how many Walmarts within 20 miles of the station?). Walmart is an expert at lower income demographics, and they won't build multiple stores unless there a critical mass of people to shop multiple stores...
I'm sorry. I should have wrote, "from my point of view this is putting the cart before the horse."

Passenger projections are absolutely crucial for service planning, equipment selection, marketing, and any ranking of a potential service compared to other potential transportation investments. I think that the number of Walmarts is an interesting and valid indicator.

Here are a couple of others: Most (all?) states measure traffic volumes along highways and report the number of vehicles along a given link in the network. The first link is to Montana's data. The second link is one data provider that can help planners estimate the origins and destinations of the travelers on a given link.

A quick scan shows that I-90 has around 10,000 vehicles per day (VPD) in a given link. As points of comparison, I zoomed into US-2 and see <2,000 VPD. I also looked at similar data in Minnesota, were I-90 has ~32,000 VPD southeast of Rochester. It looks like on I-90 in MT about 75% of the traffic is cars and light trucks.

Not having the ability to model any of those numbers, we don't know how many passengers a given service could attract at a given fare. Right now, we don't have good points of comparison in North America.

I don't think it takes all that many passengers to make a two person crew on a ~150 seat FLIRT DMU a viable service--given the prerequisite of passenger-first infrastructure to support frequency, speed, and reliability. When I write that from my point of view the cart is before the horse, I mean that without those prerequisites, the service doesn't compete with the car on the interstate.

Here's a back of the envelope:
  • 7,000 VPD x 343 miles (Missoula-Billings) = ~2.4 million vehicle miles per day (at least 2.4M passenger miles)
  • Using the every 2.5 hour example at 55 mph: 12 trains x 355 miles = 4260 revenue miles
  • If using a 150 seat DMU 4260 x 150 = 639,000 seat miles
  • If the goal was 50% load factor, then you'd be looking for 319,500 passenger miles.
  • Which is less than 13.3% of the existing passenger travel in the corridor.
Could that happen? I haven't the slightest clue. Pointing out what I wrote last night:
jsmyers wrote:you're probably thinking I've lost my marbles because I'm advocating for high frequency corridor service in Montana. In terms of priority you are absolutely right! This service wouldn't and shouldn't be the highest priority. But is was a simple example to illustrate how passenger-only tracks can provide a lot of service with largely single-track operations.
From my point of view, type of frequent, clock face, service is much more obviously a good idea in a place where the parallel highway has 40,000+ VPD and the railroad could support 70+ mph average trip speeds.
 #1567982  by scratchyX1
 
David Benton wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:31 am
John_Perkowski wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:15 pm
David Benton wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:32 pm It would seem to be a good time to relook at the DMU concept for some of these routes. An auto/ quick coupling system would allow a lot more options, to connect more cities. As usual for me, extensive thruway buses would create a useful network.
David, in case you’ve not heard, the President’s intent is to move the US from fossil fuels as an energy supply.
Great news. Hybrid emus then. Either way the concept of been able to split and cover more routes is what I mean.
I mean, EMU did take down a Battalion of Australian Army.
 #1567990  by STrRedWolf
 
David Benton wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:31 am Great news. Hybrid emus then. Either way the concept of been able to split and cover more routes is what I mean.
I saw "hybrid emus" and I thought "Wait, they got cyborg birds from Australia pulling trains now? What does the horn sound like? 'OZZY OZZY OZZY! (oi oi oi!)?'" (Although having a train go "OZZY OZZY OZZY" would make me go "What the ---- mate?") :smiley:
 #1568029  by David Benton
 
well , the Restaurant car would have a fresh supply of eggs . And meat occasionally. (after a head end meet).
Electric Multiple Unit's might be a safer bet though .
Australia will have a hybrid Dmu's in use though , from 2023.
 #1568039  by electricron
 
John_Perkowski wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:20 pm I have a way to pay for the Biden Plan.

$10 per pound for each passenger and his baggage flying commercial air, PER BOARDING.

Assume a 150 pound person with 30 pounds of baggage. $1800 for each of a two leg flight.

It’s a pipe dream.
Why not also tax train passengers the same amount as plane passengers?
It would certainly add revenues short term, but in the long term you would actually kill both means of transport making both of them too expensive for most customers.
That was not a pipe dream, it is a pipe nightmare! ;)

We should be adopting a tax structure to subsidize transportation by taxing each mode separately, a tax for highways, a tax for railways, a tax for seaways, and a tax for airways. Believe it or not, all have separate tax schemes except one mode, rail.
 #1568054  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:36 pm
David Benton wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:31 am Great news. Hybrid emus then. Either way the concept of been able to split and cover more routes is what I mean.
I saw "hybrid emus" and I thought "Wait, they got cyborg birds from Australia pulling trains now? What does the horn sound like? 'OZZY OZZY OZZY! (oi oi oi!)?'" (Although having a train go "OZZY OZZY OZZY" would make me go "What the ---- mate?") :smiley:
it's austrailia, I'd not. be surprised if cyborg birds were added to the "list of things that want to kill humans" down there
 #1568060  by Arborwayfan
 
Passenger trains can't charge attract passengers at fares high enough to break even. Taxing train tickets would just force Amtrak (and any other operator) to cut fares even further below the break-even point. The taxes on airline tickets mostly go to pay for parts of the air travel system that aren't performed by the airlines (airports, ATC, that sort of thing), right? Taxes on ship tix go to port facilities? Bus taxes, to highways and maybe bus stations? Gas taxes for private vehicles, to highways? Amtrak and other operators pay for those costs themselves, or would if they could afford to. I don't see how taxing the tickets would help. Or am I missing something?

Carbon taxes on airline tix are, I assume, supposed to reduce the number of people flying. That's a different goal.

I like the detail in the discussion of potential # of passengers. Sometimes I think we fans, and some Amtrak planners, imagine that there's a fixed number of people out there who want to take a train, and that if the train runs only in the morning, or only every other day, those people will all, or almost all, arrange their movements so that they can take the train; and, conversely, that if trains are added, the same pool of people will spread out over the new trains leaving them all with a lot of empty seats. I am not always sure what the point of adding one-a-day trains on new routes, at least new 100-200 mile routes, is; either those routes can fill several trains a day and get flexible service, or they really can only fill one train a day and might be better served by roomy buses on convenient schedules. I like the Walmart count and I like the idea that the frequency partly depends on the length of the trip and what the train is competing with.

Also, always nice to have these civilized, thoughtful conversations.