Amtrak Grade Crossing Safety

Everyone: I looked up and found the following info on the new border crossing rules effective June 1st:
http://www.getyouhome.gov for the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and for US Customs and Border Protection see: http://www.cbp.gov/
For other info such as US Passport Cards look here: http://www.travel.state.gov Good referral sites for border crossing regulations.
Enhanced Drivers Licenses issued by US and Canadian jurisdictions will be accepted for border crossings between the US and Canada
but will NOT be honored to travel by air. June 1st is just over a week away-travelers be ready! MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: I looked up and found the following info on the new border crossing rules effective June 1st:
http://www.getyouhome.gov for the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative and for US Customs and Border Protection see: http://www.cbp.gov/
For other info such as US Passport Cards look here: http://www.travel.state.gov Good referral sites for border crossing regulations.
Enhanced Drivers Licenses issued by US and Canadian jurisdictions will be accepted for border crossings between the US and Canada
but will NOT be honored to travel by air. June 1st is just over a week away-travelers be ready! MACTRAXX

The air travel one is going to be interesting as US Dept of State says they can't make them ICAO compliant, but there examples of a smaller card used in Asia.

Anyways, I have had my passport since 2005

Though not specifically train related, here's an article in Saturday's NY Times (24th May):

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/24/world ... ing&st=cse

Key takeaway for me, at least the only one I feel I can comment on without violating the rules , is that there will be no more delays to the implementation of this last part of the WHTI.

The idea of having a manifest was brilliant, now if they only would do the inspection while the train is in motion between St. Lambert and Plattsburgh....

Crossing the border on The Adirondack a month or so ago, I also found an interesting tactic I've seen before in other environs. In wrapping up my inspection, a Canadian guard jockeying the manifest asked me such an unrelated oddball question, it was so off the wall, I realized they already had the answer and it was a tactical measure to verify the ID they had. I won't tell you what it was, because to do so, would compromise a cleaver trick that can nail a LOT of the WRONG PEOPLE. I will tell you though, that of all the borders I've ever crossed, the GRILLINGS I have received, and questions I have been asked, this one caught me totally by surprise, and from a Canadian guard, no less.

If I hesitated or couldn't answer the question, or if I had answered it incorrectly, I'm pretty sure my feet would have hit the ballast at Cantic and I would have been escourted someplace I wouldn't want to go.

On the return to the US, I'm pretty sure the guard had a piece of information I had volunteered going up (reason for the trip), and he acted like he had all the time in the world to hear me talk about it -- so I did in blistering detail -- and to his satisfaction that I was telling the truth.

In case you never worked for a government, let me share something with you. You NEVER get an oddball question unless they already have the answer. The question isn't a ploy for information, it's a test of your truthfulness. If you are ever interviewed for a security clearance FOLLOWING an investigation, they already have ALL the answers. Something else people don't always figure out; these people working border checkpoints on both sides work TOGETHER.

D/

Dieter wrote:The idea of having a manifest was brilliant, now if they only would do the inspection while the train is in motion between St. Lambert and Plattsburgh....

Crossing the border on The Adirondack a month or so ago, I also found an interesting tactic I've seen before in other environs. In wrapping up my inspection, a Canadian guard jockeying the manifest asked me such an unrelated oddball question, it was so off the wall, I realized they already had the answer and it was a tactical measure to verify the ID they had. I won't tell you what it was, because to do so, would compromise a cleaver trick that can nail a LOT of the WRONG PEOPLE. I will tell you though, that of all the borders I've ever crossed, the GRILLINGS I have received, and questions I have been asked, this one caught me totally by surprise, and from a Canadian guard, no less.

If I hesitated or couldn't answer the question, or if I had answered it incorrectly, I'm pretty sure my feet would have hit the ballast at Cantic and I would have been escourted someplace I wouldn't want to go.

On the return to the US, I'm pretty sure the guard had a piece of information I had volunteered going up (reason for the trip), and he acted like he had all the time in the world to hear me talk about it -- so I did in blistering detail -- and to his satisfaction that I was telling the truth.

In case you never worked for a government, let me share something with you. You NEVER get an oddball question unless they already have the answer. The question isn't a ploy for information, it's a test of your truthfulness. If you are ever interviewed for a security clearance FOLLOWING an investigation, they already have ALL the answers. Something else people don't always figure out; these people working border checkpoints on both sides work TOGETHER.

D/

I know what your talking about; that's a common tactic not ONLY used by customs officers, but also other forms of law enforcement. The question in my case was about my old French temporary resident visa which BOTH US CBP and CBSA asked me about. I gave the answer the same way both times, which satisfied both customs officers.

However, after I got asked that question by US CBP on renentry, I inquired to the officer about where that information came from as that was from my old expired passport. He said with a passport, all international travel activity with that passport (and previous expired or renewals as its all linked) is generated when the passport is read. He said he can see every time the passport was used for re-entry and also entry into select countries. if something stands out in the travel activity, well you can see what happens. And the officer was kind of enough to point out that anyone can make a FOIA request for all this information, which I am in a process of doing for myself just for sport.

And don't call frontline members of US CBP and CBSA "guards", they are officers.

Agent Skelly, I hear you about the title, but from my experience, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet and there's a border; if the humans in uniform resemble a police officer, or a soldier, regardless of how it is or is not empowered and he/she's guarding a Frontier, it's a GUARD and their primary duty is to guard the border. There's nothing to be ashamed of in that responsibility or title. All the Officers I've ever known were armed. Until recent years, Canadian Border Guards did not carry arms, nor were they empowered to make an arrest, or do little more than ask you where you were going. Things have changed dramatically since 9/11.

In a vehicle entering the US, the vehicle with occupants visible is photographed, if you enter at Champlain, they now have large signs informing you that your private conversations are being monitored, which is a joke - that's been possible for decades. Forget about rolling the windows up and turning on the radio while you fight about where you're going for lunch or how many fruits and vegetables you have in a cooler, they can hear everything through the gift of a graphic equalizer. They map patterns, they know when you habitually come and go. Everything comes up on a screen in the booth, including your passport shot. Last year when dog papers were not passed out of the vehicle with passports, they knew to ask about a dog. The dog had died the previous month. Gone but not forgotten in the darndest of places....

My last trip stuck out like a sore thumb. Out of sync with my established and documented patterns, not in a car, on the train, travelling alone -- gee, is it the same guy or someone using his ID? Odd ball questions out of left field and like the right key in the lock, everything's OK. I've seen people asked to leave the train, and though a far cry from an old story a friend told me, (This one's worth it) A tour bus was going from East Berlin into West Berlin in the 1960's. Before leaving the east, an officer accompanied by two armed border guards (soldiers) boarded the bus for inspection. An East German had snuck onboard to escape to the west -- was caught and was forcibly removed from the bus, kicking and screaming for his LIFE. If you didn't know, if a guard killed such a person attempting to escape from East Germany, he got a cash bonus and TWO WEEKS PAID VACATION. So they get this guy screaming off the bus and they beat him with a rifle butt all the way to a door where he disappeared inside to a fate nobody would want. At that point, a weisenheimer kid from Brooklyn snydely announced to the bus; "Well? I SUPPOSE THAT'S THE LAST WE WILL BE SEEING OF HIM!!!"

Point of that digression, the last time I saw people removed from the train, they had to take their luggage and all I heard was, they would be inspected and "Interviewed". If they passed, transport would be provided into Montreal. If not, they would be returned to American authorities, where the real fun would begin.

FOr entering a Commonwealth country and coming from a Commonwealth country, you may be surprised at how Australian and New Zealand youth are handled. There has been a scam with the kids for sometime where they purchase an return air ticket, come to North America and hang out. They cash in the return ticket and live off of and travel on the money. When the money runs out, they run for the US/CDN Border and get "Caught". You see, if they don't have a return ticket, they will be denied entry. Upon return to the other side (regardless), that party doesn't want them either. Guess what happens next? The kids get a FREE FLIGHT back down under. I learned about that a few years back on of all places; riding The Adirondack.

An Australian travelling with his girlfriend became the subjects of one of the worst grillings I've ever witnessed on the train. The man was an employee of United Airlines, and was travelling with an "OPEN TICKET". He couldn't get it through the Officer's/Guard's head what that was, the inspector had clearly never seen one. The man was at least 30, he said he and his girlfriend were travelling around the world, and when they got tired of it, they had these open tickets to use from wherever, to fly back home. This altercation ate up at least 40 minutes. Then they got to the Saudi's and Pakistani's and took them all off the train, and like in East Germany -- NEVER to be seen again.

People entering Canada frequently for work, either commuting from say northern New York State or Vermont to Montreal, or long haul truckers, can get a special ID called a CANPASS. The Canpass is a privilige, and violation of terms has stiff penalties. If they stop someone with a Canpass for inspection and they have undeclared thingys in the vehicle, they are in deep trouble. Canpass users go through the border with the same delay as we get in an average paytoll.

On the rail, they don't have a computer, it's done the old fashioned way -- eyeballing and chatting people up to see if they crack a sweat or make stupid or contradictory statements. I think the manifest is a brilliant tool to assist the people on both sides of the line.

D/

Dieter wrote:Agent Skelly, I hear you about the title, but from my experience, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet and there's a border; if the humans in uniform resemble a police officer, or a soldier, regardless of how it is or is not empowered and he/she's guarding a Frontier, it's a GUARD and their primary duty is to guard the border. There's nothing to be ashamed of in that responsibility or title. All the Officers I've ever known were armed. Until recent years, Canadian Border Guards did not carry arms, nor were they empowered to make an arrest, or do little more than ask you where you were going. Things have changed dramatically since 9/11.

In a vehicle entering the US, the vehicle with occupants visible is photographed, if you enter at Champlain, they now have large signs informing you that your private conversations are being monitored, which is a joke - that's been possible for decades. Forget about rolling the windows up and turning on the radio while you fight about where you're going for lunch or how many fruits and vegetables you have in a cooler, they can hear everything through the gift of a graphic equalizer. They map patterns, they know when you habitually come and go. Everything comes up on a screen in the booth, including your passport shot. Last year when dog papers were not passed out of the vehicle with passports, they knew to ask about a dog. The dog had died the previous month. Gone but not forgotten in the darndest of places....

My last trip stuck out like a sore thumb. Out of sync with my established and documented patterns, not in a car, on the train, travelling alone -- gee, is it the same guy or someone using his ID? Odd ball questions out of left field and like the right key in the lock, everything's OK. I've seen people asked to leave the train, and though a far cry from an old story a friend told me, (This one's worth it) A tour bus was going from East Berlin into West Berlin in the 1960's. Before leaving the east, an officer accompanied by two armed border guards (soldiers) boarded the bus for inspection. An East German had snuck onboard to escape to the west -- was caught and was forcibly removed from the bus, kicking and screaming for his LIFE. If you didn't know, if a guard killed such a person attempting to escape from East Germany, he got a cash bonus and TWO WEEKS PAID VACATION. So they get this guy screaming off the bus and they beat him with a rifle butt all the way to a door where he disappeared inside to a fate nobody would want. At that point, a weisenheimer kid from Brooklyn snydely announced to the bus; "Well? I SUPPOSE THAT'S THE LAST WE WILL BE SEEING OF HIM!!!"

Point of that digression, the last time I saw people removed from the train, they had to take their luggage and all I heard was, they would be inspected and "Interviewed". If they passed, transport would be provided into Montreal. If not, they would be returned to American authorities, where the real fun would begin.

FOr entering a Commonwealth country and coming from a Commonwealth country, you may be surprised at how Australian and New Zealand youth are handled. There has been a scam with the kids for sometime where they purchase an return air ticket, come to North America and hang out. They cash in the return ticket and live off of and travel on the money. When the money runs out, they run for the US/CDN Border and get "Caught". You see, if they don't have a return ticket, they will be denied entry. Upon return to the other side (regardless), that party doesn't want them either. Guess what happens next? The kids get a FREE FLIGHT back down under. I learned about that a few years back on of all places; riding The Adirondack.

An Australian travelling with his girlfriend became the subjects of one of the worst grillings I've ever witnessed on the train. The man was an employee of United Airlines, and was travelling with an "OPEN TICKET". He couldn't get it through the Officer's/Guard's head what that was, the inspector had clearly never seen one. The man was at least 30, he said he and his girlfriend were travelling around the world, and when they got tired of it, they had these open tickets to use from wherever, to fly back home. This altercation ate up at least 40 minutes. Then they got to the Saudi's and Pakistani's and took them all off the train, and like in East Germany -- NEVER to be seen again.

People entering Canada frequently for work, either commuting from say northern New York State or Vermont to Montreal, or long haul truckers, can get a special ID called a CANPASS. The Canpass is a privilige, and violation of terms has stiff penalties. If they stop someone with a Canpass for inspection and they have undeclared thingys in the vehicle, they are in deep trouble. Canpass users go through the border with the same delay as we get in an average paytoll.

On the rail, they don't have a computer, it's done the old fashioned way -- eyeballing and chatting people up to see if they crack a sweat or make stupid or contradictory statements. I think the manifest is a brilliant tool to assist the people on both sides of the line.

D/

They DO have a computer actually. They have a Panasonic Toughbook that is wirelessly linked to a SATCOM connection in their patrol SUV. I've seen both US CBP and CBSA pull it out once when they had to run a passport that was suspicious. And they just not have the manifest with them, they also have any data from the Automated Targeting System on passengers that has come up.

I get rarely asked about a return ticket myself on all modes. I got asked ONCE by CBSA when I took the Cascades to VAC last summer. But that was because I got selected for secondary inspection due to one officer thought my luggage was a bit heavy. I just let the officer do his job when he opened up my luggage, but I think in retrospect, he used the questions more informally because he was more concerned with the contents of my luggage.

And yes, that sign at the US Border about conversation recording has been around since 1988 as I recall or it might of been after Pan Am Lockbrie....

I can only say that Montreal, for example, was once a major business and cultural destination for New Yorkers, but today, with the decades long flight of business out of Quebec and the decline of Anglophone culture in Quebec.

Montreal is still a large business centre and business is booming. There is also a very strong real estate market that has rebounded over the last 10 years, much stronger than most in North America today.

There are also almost 30 flights a day each way on 4 airlines between NYC and Montreal everyday and thats not all leisure travel.

This pre-clearance measure is not used in the airline industry

Wrong, airlines send the flight manifest. Once sent, you can not buy a ticket - happened to me in Portland a few weeks back when heading to Vancouver.

for Canadians they will still need to pay $200 cad for a regular Canadian passport just to visit the US,

Actually the fee is CA$87. Problem is the Canadian passport is only valid for 5 years. So for the same validity of a US passport the fee is CA$174 every 10 years, which is only CA$17/year - not that bad. Many Canadians already have passports anyway for travel to Europe, Asia, Carribean, and Mexico. Canadians tend to travel far more than the average American.

That depends on the Airline ! some do pre-clearance on the Canada side and some wait till you deboard in the US and let the host airport and customs deal with you. Ive flown from Toronto to Chicago many times on many airlines and have found this loop hole out.

ACtually it depends on the airport on the Canadian side. If there is a US Customs facility there then all flights to the US have passengers pre-cleared. Canadian airports that do not have US Customs facilites must land at a US airport that does and have passengers proceed thru US customs there. I fly to Canada 2, 3, sometimes 4 times a month and have never not had customs done by US authorities in Canada.

ACtually it depends on the airport on the Canadian side. If there is a US Customs facility there then all flights to the US have passengers pre-cleared. Canadian airports that do not have US Customs facilites must land at a US airport that does and have passengers proceed thru US customs there. I fly to Canada 2, 3, sometimes 4 times a month and have never not had customs done by US authorities in Canada.

Talking to a few other friends who are are more frequent transborder travelers than myself, one of them said at Calgary in the late 90s, they had to clear US Customs & Immigrations at their destination of San Fransisco because of some weird computer issue. Airline personnel had to write on their tickets with a marker that said "MUST CLEAR FIS AT SFO" in addition to the flight needing to arrive at the International terminal instead of the domestic one.

As for a Eurostar-style train for North America, I think it could be with the Maple Leaf and Adirondack but some stops would have to be eliminated in order to make it work and you would have to make the train pick-up only (no discharges) while en route to the border or somehow segergate the train from domestic and international passengers.

For the Maple Leaf, this would be easy since you just have the train do NYP, POU, ALB, SDY, UCA, SYR, ROC, BUF, and of course NFL, since you need to have a staffed station where you can segregate off passengers somehow. Then there's the issue of getting into an agreement with CBSA for running a inspection team on such a train south of the border.

1 Consular fee: a consular fee of CAN$25 is included in the cost of all adult passports. For more information on the consular fee, you may contact

Thats actually included in the cost of the passport not extra.

There would need to be a customs and immigration area in the station with a fenced platform. Once through US immigration in Montreal the passenger has to be fenced in until the train crosses the US border. That has implications in case of a train breakdown before the border is reached. All this costs someone money. It is easier to justify in the case of a service like Eurostar where there is more or less an hourly service. For one outgoing and one incoming train, or even if you add you were to add an extra train via Vermont, this expence is hard to justify.

Actually the only costs are structural really. The US already has agents stationed in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver for air services. They just need to be deployed part of the time for the departing train. They do not need to be there for the arriving train - that is Canada's jurisdiction. Also Montreal is only 35 miles north of the border, so fear of breakdown is minimal.

As a dual (actually tri) citizen, I have found that Canadian customs is the most nasty. I have started to confront them on this and they always back down. I think someone hit it earlier on in their post, that these officers are just on a power trip. I am almost always asked for my status in the US, which I consider none of their business as a Canadian with a valid Canadian passport landing (landing is a generic term regardless of mode of travel) in Canada. The last agent I confronted, and I was quite mad at the time, admitted that they have no right to ask or to ask for a US passport when told that I am dual. They can not refuse entry to a Canadian with a Canadian passport even if such passport is expired. All they could do is arrest you if you have an outstanding Canadian arrest warrant. Anyway, sorry for the rant, but a pet peeve. Also proves how much the Canadians are cooperating post 9/11 with the US authorities.

drewh wrote:

1 Consular fee: a consular fee of CAN$25 is included in the cost of all adult passports. For more information on the consular fee, you may contact

Thats actually included in the cost of the passport not extra.

There would need to be a customs and immigration area in the station with a fenced platform. Once through US immigration in Montreal the passenger has to be fenced in until the train crosses the US border. That has implications in case of a train breakdown before the border is reached. All this costs someone money. It is easier to justify in the case of a service like Eurostar where there is more or less an hourly service. For one outgoing and one incoming train, or even if you add you were to add an extra train via Vermont, this expence is hard to justify.

Actually the only costs are structural really. The US already has agents stationed in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver for air services. They just need to be deployed part of the time for the departing train. They do not need to be there for the arriving train - that is Canada's jurisdiction. Also Montreal is only 35 miles north of the border, so fear of breakdown is minimal.

As a dual (actually tri) citizen, I have found that Canadian customs is the most nasty. I have started to confront them on this and they always back down. I think someone hit it earlier on in their post, that these officers are just on a power trip. I am almost always asked for my status in the US, which I consider none of their business as a Canadian with a valid Canadian passport landing (landing is a generic term regardless of mode of travel) in Canada. The last agent I confronted, and I was quite mad at the time, admitted that they have no right to ask or to ask for a US passport when told that I am dual. They can not refuse entry to a Canadian with a Canadian passport even if such passport is expired. All they could do is arrest you if you have an outstanding Canadian arrest warrant. Anyway, sorry for the rant, but a pet peeve. Also proves how much the Canadians are cooperating post 9/11 with the US authorities.

I think I mentioned somewhere before that the only people who have ever put me in a cell were the Canadian border officers.

It was 1963 and I was travelling on a US Green card (easy to get in those days) by Greyhound's go everywhere ticket. They made me get off the bus from Boston to Quebec and stay the night at the border. Actually, I enjoyed the experience. I had a night without paying hotel expense. I washed my clothes and when they unlocked the door went for a walk in the woods. Oh, and they fed me hamburger from the nearest village.

Going back into the US I had no trouble on the bus from Toronto to Cleveland.

In Europe things have changed immensely. I can remember being on a train from Germany to Rotterdam, and seeing people taken off the train by militaristic looking polizei (whether German or Dutch I don't know. Now there are no checks at all on the road or the rail. On the road you don't even need to slow down at the border as it is marked merely by a sign. In the city of Lille some of the suburbs are in Belgium. On the local bus it is hard to detect the border as the only change is that the street names change from France to Flanders. On the train from Netherlands to belgium they only check the ticket - though I had to buy it in the International section at Amsterdam station. That was before the euro came in, which makes the border even less real.

I've never had customs officers in any nation I have been to on a power trip. When I come up to their podium, I have everything out for them ready for them to do their job and they do appreciate that.

I've observed passengers while on the Maple Leaf who don't realize the customs officers are law enforcement officers (well immigration law in most cases) and just treat them like they are a cashier. My favorite is the people who are talking on their cell phone while the train is doing customs inspection when there is an announcement that you need to turn off your phone while the inspection is progress.

In flight, the strangest thing I've seen is clearing Customs in Dorval (Montreal) for flights to NYC/LGA. You clear customs and your bag is off, then closer to the gate, you get ambushed with US Immigration. I like getting it over with in one fell swoop.

I have to agree with Agentskelly about not encountering guys on powertrips, but I have run into one woman (US) who was made of nails and broken glass who was determined to prove she could do the job like the Gestapo. To say the woman had issues is an understatement. Most of the people are congenial, it's part of the job to prevent a panic.

On the final years of VIA's "Atlantic" across northern Maine, there were reports of downright militant inspectors coming into Maine at Magantic, pounding on doors of sleeping compartments like there was a fire. Rude too.

D/

Dieter wrote:In flight, the strangest thing I've seen is clearing Customs in Dorval (Montreal) for flights to NYC/LGA. You clear customs and your bag is off, then closer to the gate, you get ambushed with US Immigration. I like getting it over with in one fell swoop.

I have to agree with Agentskelly about not encountering guys on powertrips, but I have run into one woman (US) who was made of nails and broken glass who was determined to prove she could do the job like the Gestapo. To say the woman had issues is an understatement. Most of the people are congenial, it's part of the job to prevent a panic.

On the final years of VIA's "Atlantic" across northern Maine, there were reports of downright militant inspectors coming into Maine at Magantic, pounding on doors of sleeping compartments like there was a fire. Rude too.

D/

Dieter, what you describe is pre-clearence customs (and one of the subjects we have been talking about) which was started in 1952 by American Airlines at YYZ. More information is here: http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/cont ... ations.xml

Dieter wrote: In case you never worked for a government, let me share something with you. You NEVER get an oddball question unless they already have the answer. The question isn't a ploy for information, it's a test of your truthfulness. If you are ever interviewed for a security clearance FOLLOWING an investigation, they already have ALL the answers. Something else people don't always figure out; these people working border checkpoints on both sides work TOGETHER.

Actually they only have those answers that they can get their hands on. I have had at least two occasions when they thought they had the answer but they actually didn't and I was able to prove that they had the wrong answer. It was a bit of a hassle, but at least they corrected their dossier on me so that they won't trip up on that specific one again. They do have a rather extensive set of records on me because I cross into US at various entry points on an average around a dozen times a year. I am also one of those weirdos whose entire travel record is not in the US passport since for certain other countries I use a different document being a dual citizen.

Now of course the chatting that the Israeli security agents do at Ben Gurion Airport for outbound passengers is a trip in and of itself. I spent 10 minutes while standing in a security check line, chatting with an agent on the origin of my name and the history of East India Railway, which was quite enjoyable actually, and then she put a sticker on my passport, that she carefully selected from a sheaf of them, and after that it was smooth sailing all the way through security. I am sure she was least interested in the details of what we talked about and had no knowledge of half the stuff that I mentioned before she heard it from me. But then she was not really looking for that info, was she?

OTOH, inbound at Ben Gurion, there was literally no conversation at immigration. Looked at the passport, looked at me, asked me when I was planning to leave, and who I was visiting, and that was it. Sometimes I get more grilling at the US - Canadian border. Outbound there was no conversation at all with the immigration guy that time, nor at the US entry at Newark - just a "Good Morning" and a "Welcome back".