Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

Absolutely. There are political exigencies that must be heeded. But what Amtrak management have categorically failed to do, in my humble opinion, is to make a convincing case - a case that they *could* make.

It is, of course, up to Congress to accept or reject that case. But senior management owe it to us to make that case. and let public opinion - suitably informed - ressure Congress.

But it will probably never happen, and Amtrak's inexorable decline will continue until, due to mismanagement and lack of enlightened governance, it will functionally collapse into a shadowof what it should be.

The Empire Corridor probably demonstrates the core issues that frustrate the development of a workable short-to-medium-distance intercity rail passenger network more directly than any other part of Amtrak. It has the demographics, the geographic structure (no major mountain grades) and the political climate necessary to develop and support an intercity service with sufficient frequency to attract a loyal clientele, but is probably the line most severely limited by freight-dispatching conflicts as well.

But on a positive note, it is also the most likely theater in which these conflicts could be resolved. Assuming that separation of high-speed vs freight traffic is a must in the name of safety, either four-tracking could be reinstated along the current route (with sufficent safety barriers), alternate routes, such as the former Erie-Lackawanna could be utilized for freight, or discarded grades reopened (At least three alternatives exist between Buffalo and Batavia alone.)

Finally, it cannot be emphasized strongly enough to the general public that, like the Northeast Corridor and the completely-new services in Europe and Japan, a project of this magnitude will require planning over a very long term. I would also remind our little Parliament that the voters are less fiscally-conservative when the money goes for "bricks and mortar" than to add yet another bureaucracy.

Considering that there is no food service on the Philly-Harrisburg corridor (104 miles), I'm surprised nobody has put up a fuss about that decades ago. If you add the Philly-New York segment of the run (since most trips are through trains), it becomes a roughly 192-mile run...longer than NYP-ALB, and no food service....

2nd trick op wrote:The Empire Corridor probably demonstrates the core issues that frustrate the development of a workable short-to-medium-distance intercity rail passenger network more directly than any other part of Amtrak. It has the demographics, the geographic structure (no major mountain grades) and the political climate necessary to develop and support an intercity service with sufficient frequency to attract a loyal clientele, but is probably the line most severely limited by freight-dispatching conflicts as well.

But on a positive note, it is also the most likely theater in which these conflicts could be resolved. Assuming that separation of high-speed vs freight traffic is a must in the name of safety, either four-tracking could be reinstated along the current route (with sufficent safety barriers), alternate routes, such as the former Erie-Lackawanna could be utilized for freight, or discarded grades reopened (At least three alternatives exist between Buffalo and Batavia alone.)

Finally, it cannot be emphasized strongly enough to the general public that, like the Northeast Corridor and the completely-new services in Europe and Japan, a project of this magnitude will require planning over a very long term. I would also remind our little Parliament that the voters are less fiscally-conservative when the money goes for "bricks and mortar" than to add yet another bureaucracy.

Between Albany and New York there are only a couple of freight trains a
day each way including CSX and CPR. There is no need for more trackage in this area and passenger trains generally make a good run and
usually are on time or at least make their running time.
West of Schenectady it is a different story with many freight trains in both
directions day and night. The best solution for truly decent high speed
or higher speed should I say passenger service in this area would be for
the state to buy the present tracks from CSX and using the existing right
of way, build two new tracks for CSX freight trains. Remember, this entire
line was four tracks at one time so this would generally not be too
difficult over most of the route. In many places the bridges are even still
in place. Between Buffalo and Batavia there is only one line still in use
and that is the present CSX route but again there is room for two more
tracks in this area. The other routes have for the most part, not only been
abandoned and removed but the bridges are gone and some of the
property is gone too. A cheaper and better solution to the above would
be to put in a third track all the way and use higher speed crossovers and
probably more of them too. This could be better but I doubt if they would
get much cooperation from CSX which just does not want passenger trains
of any kind on their railroad.
Noel Weaver

Man, it's hard to keep up with yunz folks on these discussions.

Anyway...

IMO, there will be more public-private partnerships on railroad projects, not less. The private railroads just don't have access to capital the same way our friendly government does.

NS seems to have realized that; witness their recent interest in running passenger trains in Virginia. If CSX management were a bit more astute, they would cut a deal with NY state to build them another track as Noel has outlined. Right now, they don't seem to have much of an effect on the management lightmeter.

There is duscussion at other sites reporting that Food & Beverage service will be restored to the NY-Albany Empire Corridor sets. The operation will be a complete "contract out' , including on-board service employees.

My "take": anyone around here follow the HoBO TV soap opera "Rome"?

Did not Caesar promise pieces of silver to the citizens after he installed himself as Roman Emperor?

In short, I'm not surprised to learn of these developments; possibly other"pieces of silver' could reappear about the System, such as hot meals on the Acela and soda pop in the Sleepers.

A long shot....might the Turbos be returned to service?

Any other ideas that would discredit the Gunn administration? Lest we note, the "Gunnmen' were quick to be rid of George's "lava lamps' on the Amfleets.

Regarding the "contracting out' matter, I'll believe that one when I see it. In a one man one vote environment represented by any publicly funded agency, and considering the strong support Amtrak has received over the years from organized labor, that will prove to be an 'easier said than done '.

Respecting in advance, Mr. Wigwag et al, your certain disagreement.

The contract is Subway it will be ran with Subway emplyoees.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Respecting in advance, Mr. Wigwag et al, your certain disagreement.

I find this rather funny Mr. Norman, as I hadn't participated on this particular thread and was just reading it as it appeared on the top of the message thread. Since, I am not too keenly familiar with the Empire Corridor...

I'm not against food service onboard trains, just a problem with the GAO's reports and its outcome. I certainly respect that contracting/outsourcing/competitive bid in an environment that is currently occupied by a very strong unionized workforce is going to be difficult if not impossible, so I agree with you 100%. I'll believe it when I see it (or, hear about it from the other members of this board, anyways...it'll be awhile before I'm in New York.)

I think the energies being spent in Amtrak and its unions could be well spent on finding a way to make F&B work, and cover its costs. Be creative, limit the service offering, agree to reduce some labor costs or some positions, improve employee morale (incentive bonuses?)... If contracting to a third party is the best way, so be it (notwithstanding the previous paragraph).

Whether or not it is a "necessary" on these trains, I am not in a position to judge based on my lack of knowledge of the particular train.

Here is the official press release from Amtrak:

Amtrak And Subway® Restaurant Chain Team Up For “Fresh Idea” On Empire Service

WASHINGTON – Starting November 17, Amtrak Empire Service between New York City and Albany will offer a new on-board food service operated by the SUBWAY® restaurant chain.

The full release is HERE.

Can Amtrak do this without being in violation of their labor agreements? Are they trying to provoke a strike?

JoeG wrote:Can Amtrak do this without being in violation of their labor agreements? Are they trying to provoke a strike?

1st Yes since those emplyoees were offerd other jobs 2nd one No.

Thank you Mr. Pittsburgher - PRR60.

As far as I am concerned, and considering that some of my railroad career was in Labor Relations, if this does come to pass, it WILL be 'groundbreaking'.

But then, Amtrak has broken ground with Agreements in the past. Twenty five years ago, when the assumption of Train & Engine employees commenced, the concept of a "foreign road' employee not holding seniority on the crew district operating a train was indeed groundbreaking. Today, I guess, with the extensive trackage rights conditions imposed upon the Class Ones as they (for better or more likely worse) merged their properties, I guess this instant "contracting out' matter now is just "tilling the garden" with a trowell.

Guess what, I honestly don't know who holds the contract for On-Board service employees today (possibly the TWU), but a review of that Union's website could prove interesting as this "contracting out' initiative moves forth.

Mr Poshepny, if you are right, it seems like a very poor labor agreement the LSA's union signed.

JoeG wrote:Can Amtrak do this without being in violation of their labor agreements? Are they trying to provoke a strike?

I don't know the answer to the first question, but as regards the second, is it possible that what's left of Amtrak management has now adopted an apocalyptic, nothing-to-loose mentality and they're willing to fight this out?

I can see a scenario where Amtrak management claims that the only way that they can provide food service for the Empire Corridor at an affordable price is to farm it out. Which side does the current Congress come down on -- cost cutting or propping up the union? Would a population that largely supports low wage Wal-Mart for the sake of low prices get upset about union workers being replaced by contractors? Could this be the first of a bunch of battles with labor that Amtrak will initiate in an effort to survive?

Doesn't it seem odd that less than a week after Gunn is ousted, food service is returning to Empire Service (NY-Albany)?

Mr. Norman may in fact be right in that hopefully some of the wrongs made during the Gunn administration will be "rightened", not to mention perhaps the return of a Superliner Cardinal, sleepers on the Federal, etc, in addition to those items posted earlier.

-JH