Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

I haven't read through all 9 pages, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but the empire corridor runs out to Niagra Falls. If MN took over the corridor, would they run all the way out there?

blockss wrote:I haven't read through all 9 pages, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but the empire corridor runs out to Niagra Falls. If MN took over the corridor, would they run all the way out there?

I think a more likely first step might be taking over only the NYP - Albany runs. But it's conceivable that MN could take over the entire route, being that it's still entirely within New York. Of course, the Adirondack, Lake Shore Limited, and probably the Maple Leaf would continue to be interstate services provided by Amtrak.

Col Perkowski's proposal would greatly increase New York's costs for running the Empire Service, since its costs are now about zero. If NY were to take over the service, I would expect it to get an annual payment from Amtrak more or less equal to what Amtrak spends on the service, after accounting for its ticket revenues. It it agreed to run the service without Amtrak money, it would set a terrible precedent for other Amtrak routes. Col Perkowski's proposal amounts to a slippery slope, at the end of which is no Federal money for Amtrak.

Rhinecliff wrote:West of Schenectady, on the other hand, is another story.

The "other story" begins between Albany and Schenectady!

Mr JoeG,

My "Modest Proposal" (Doesn't ANYONE read Swift anymore?) is predicated on US Government, indeed, picking up $0.00 of the costs for intrastate service. Not one thin dime of subsidy.

As you've noted, it is indeed a slippery slope for those who think passenger railroading is a viable form of transportation. That said, I believe that rather than New Yorkers should not complain here at rr.net about the quality of the support they receive. Instead, they should be in touch with their New York State Legistlators and with the Congressional delegation for New York. Legislators listen to their constituencies.

John Perkowski

A couple of points here:
1. If Metro-North takes over any service north of Poughkeepsie, it is
totally un-realistic to expect Amtrak to put up any funds for this takeover.
Amtrak will still be in the picture for the Lake Shore, Adirondack, Maple
Leaf, the Rutland Train and maybe other stuff too.
2. New York State whether it is Metro-North, Amtrak or a third party will
not receive any particular cooperation with CSX and maybe CSX will not
even negotiate with any other operator except Amtrak, I do not think they
are under any obligation to do so either.
3. It will cost more to operate Metro-North to Albany than it does to
operate Amtrak to Albany, Metro-North's pay rates and agreements are
quite a bit more costly than Amtrak's are. Part of the reason for this is
because the New York City area has one of the highest cost of living of
any part of the country.
4. It would be much more cost effective for New York State to work with
Amtrak to make the fares more realistic on this line, to restore food
service and generally improve the existing trains.
5. Running the Albany service to Grand Central would not necessarily be
an improvement in service as passengers riding out of Albany would lose
their easy connection to the south and to Long Island. Subway service is
better at Penn Station too.
As I have stated previously, be careful what you wish for.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote: It would be much more cost effective for New York State to work with
Amtrak to make the fares more realistic on this line, to restore food
service and generally improve the existing trains.

Why is Amtrak so intent on turning this particular line into crap? Why did they single it out for food service elimination, for example?

As I have stated previously, be careful what you wish for.

I'd settle for what existed back in 2003, the last time I traveled on the Empire Corridor. That would be a start at least. Is that too much to wish for?

[Why is Amtrak so intent on turning this particular line into crap? Why did they single it out for food service elimination, for example? }}

Very simple the loss on the food service was astronomical, The Empire Service is treated by its customers as a commuter service, and most will enter the train bringing coffee and a bagel/rol etc.
The food service cars had not enough revenue to cover cost of even the attendant's salary, let allone benefits , cost of supplies, and car maintenance.

Col Perkowski--
I've read and enjoyed Swift's A Modest Proposal. The reason I responded to your Proposal as if it were serious, is that it seemed to be taken as a serious proposal by several Members here. I am still having trouble figuring out why these Members think that NY taking over the Empire Service from Amtrak is a good idea.

Mr JoeG,

At a policy level, my hardest piece to understand is the furtherance of 403(b) service and intra-state service at this remove from A-Day. Seems to me the several States should have base responsibility for their internal operations, and yes, I include the two Missouri Mules in that!

I find it ironic that one of the few trains the SP ran that really was allegedly profitable (the Del Monte ... the first class fares I am told were something to behold, but the rich patrons of California used that train) was one of the ones Amtrak axed on A-Day.

John Perkowski

hsr_fan wrote: Why is Amtrak so intent on turning this particular line into crap? Why did they single it out for food service elimination, for example?

I heard that one reason was to close the commissary in Albany, for a significant savings, in addition to the other reasons mentioned here.

Is Empire Service the only Amtrak service that is intrastate and not paid for specifically by the state? How about the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone trains? The Chicago-Champaign service?

JoeG wrote:Is Empire Service the only Amtrak service that is intrastate and not paid for specifically by the state? How about the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone trains? The Chicago-Champaign service?

Philadelphia - Harrisburg is state-supported.

The Illini (Chicago-Champaign-Carbondale) is supported by the State of Illinois

DutchRailnut wrote: Very simple the loss on the food service was astronomical, The Empire Service is treated by its customers as a commuter service, and most will enter the train bringing coffee and a bagel/rol etc.

My experience was that it was used, and I've even seen the cafe cars run out of certain items. But I don't doubt that perhaps overall, the demand wasn't sufficient. On the other hand, other Amtrak routes of comparable length offer food service, and given that the Empire Corridor fares are among Amtrak's highest on a per mile basis, this route should offer food service as well. If Amtrak covered the 140 miles between NYP and Albany in an hour flat with a true high speed train, I'd say fine. But a two and a half hour intercity route should have some basic amenities beyond what you'd expect from a commuter train. Heck, don't some of Metro North's trains and LIRR's Montauk trains have some sort of a bar car?!

I remember reading reports that North Carolina's Piedmont lost its cafe attendant, so they at least put out snacks and drinks in the lounge car. At least it's something...