Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

I thank GBN for his moderation skills, and for his thoughts.

I don't have much experience with auto-train, though I would have liked to have ridden the private company version. I think part of their business plan included being family friendly, even in coach.

My thoughts on intermediate stops involve a business procedure and a marketing procedure:

- The business procedure is to build the consist as a series of mixed trains ... 2-3 passenger cars and their supporting racks, repeat. That way, at a midpoint, you cut out the stopping cars, cut in any gaining cars, and roll on.

- The marketing procedure is to sell city pairs ... LA-Albuquerque, LA-Kansas City, and LA-Chicago, if using the old Santa Fe. If using the UP (LA&SL route), then LA-SLC, LA-Cheyenne, LA-Omaha, and LA to Chicago.

Mr Norman's and MR G's points on costing are important, and that is the crux of the policy issue. I think the first stop needs to be about a day out ... has to require the traveller to have overnighted in a hotel, or else he/she will just drive through. That's why I bypassed Las Vegas in the paragraph above. I don't think the economics support that.

If Mr Norman is right, and cost be hanged for those using the existing auto-train, then this idea may well be dead at the front door.

As far as the price of fuel, I'll let the dogs lie on how we got here. The fact of the matter is, though, I'm looking at each trip to see if it makes sense. A dollar only spends from my pocket once.

John Perkowski

Mr. Norman writes:

I have yet to encounter anyone on my 15 trips (all in season) over the years that is using it to save money.

I keep reading about relocators in Auto Train trip reports. It is very expensive to relocate. Shipping a car from Sanford to Lorton, for example, costs at least twice as much with a private carrier as it does on the Auto Train. I wonder if the Auto Train is capturing its proper share of this market given its advertising focus on vacation travel. On the other hand, Amtrak can't offer door-to-door.

If we extend this to cross-country moves, you could pay for a sleeper and still come out ahead compared to one-way airfare plus automobile shipping.

taoyue wrote:Mr. Norman writes:

I have yet to encounter anyone on my 15 trips (all in season) over the years that is using it to save money.

I keep reading about relocators in Auto Train trip reports. It is very expensive to relocate. Shipping a car from Sanford to Lorton, for example, costs at least twice as much with a private carrier as it does on the Auto Train. I wonder if the Auto Train is capturing its proper share of this market given its advertising focus on vacation travel. On the other hand, Amtrak can't offer door-to-door.

If we extend this to cross-country moves, you could pay for a sleeper and still come out ahead compared to one-way airfare plus automobile shipping.

On my recent trip on the Auto train, I had an extensive conversation with our Sleeping Car attendant. One of the things he mentioned was that at least one auto dealer in Florida used the train to ship Automobiles North because it was less costly to him than having the cars shipped by truck. According to this attendant, the Auto Train is actually doing fairly well financially.

Mr. Norman--- Your admonition re discussion of consists etc. is well taken. I only posted what I did because I believe that the logistical factors I mentioned would have a significant effect on policies---- particularly the potental for expansion of this type of service, the choice of locations to be served, and the decision whether to simply serve terminal points rather than try to include intermediate stops.

I think the Auto Train is now mostly patronized by WOOFs because is is a bit more expensive than driving, and is probably perceived as more expensive than it actually is, and also because of the way it is marketed.
The perception of expense is probably important to the way people make buying decisions. Col P gives a $0.35 per mile cost of driving, plus food and accommodations. This sounds right, but I suspect most people, when planning a trip, just count the gas and tolls, ignoring other costs. This cost is now around 15 cents per mile.
I like the idea of Amtrak going after the relocator and individual car-shipping markets. Relocators might be relieved not to have to deal with driving, and would see the cost as part of moving expenses. I suppose many relocators are reimbursed by employers, also. I wonder if Amtrak could develop a market among classic or antique car shippers, whose vehicles can't or shouldn't be driven long distances.
Mr Norman comments that some passengers on Auto Train would be menaces if they tried to drive long distances on I95. If this is true, and I expect it is, why should fellow motorists be protected only from well-off older drivers who have lost some abilites? How about a subsidy for senior citizens on Auto Train, much greater than Amtrak's usual 15%, that would encourage seniors to use it even if they can't afford the full price?

The WOOF factor may also be a product of where the train goes, particularly its Southern terminus. Sanford, Fla is a gateway to some fairly major pricey tourist attractions ( ie Disney World) and is most convenient for travel to those locations. This is not to suggest that it should go somewhere else, just that its image is very much tied to its proximity to these attractions.

Sorry to report, Mr. G, but the Senior Discount is not applicable to any Auto Train fares. That can be verified with a quick review at the website.

Presently, Auto Train is barred from handling unaccompied autos (that's freight) and unaccompanied passengers, save an emergency the magnitude of 9/11. However, if a family were the using the service in the process of relocating, there are no rules precluding that.

Now to direct this discussion towards the policy matters that the originator, Col. Perkowski, has asked we focus upon here, I do believe that if Amtrak were to consider "Auto Train Service' away from the existing route, I would envision overnight, "plus a little" segments. I would like to have the Auto Train Service stations away from Metropolitan areas, so that there could be a "draw' from several, as distinct from one. The auto carriers (I could not envision many more than say one or two) would be loaded at the distant stations attached to the rear of the now available for such LD fleet and passengers would be accomodated in line space.

The routes I would envision:

Chief: Ft Madison-La Lunta
Albuquerque-San Bernardino

Zephyr: Ottumwa-Denver

I think any two night out services would be lucky to have a "prayer"; I've been on enough delayed Auto Trains over the years and can only note that long about noon a pandemic of, "arewethereyetitis' sets in.

Is there the density to justify this service on the Northern Route? (Empire Builder)

I have no idea...

John Perkowski

I was not suggesting that unaccompanied vehicles be allowed on Auto Train. I think that shipping cars is often so expensive that shipping one with a rider might pay, especially in the case of antique cars.
As for the senior discount, I am suggesting that, as a social policy, an extra large discount be provided on the auto train, for seniors, to get them off the Interstate. If Amtrak can't provide this, perhaps Medicare rules could be adjusted so that the doctor of a senior with marginal driving skills could prescribe an Auto Train trip as a mobility aid (analagous to Medicare paying for an electric scooter), and Medicare would pay Amtrak for the service.

A lot of snowbirds travel down to Texas in the winter from the upper midwest. I would aim for a (south of) Dallas-Ft Worth to Chicago area, and for kicks also the following: a DFW to Denver, a DFW to LA and DFW to Atlanta area. Also a Chicago to NYC area. I know some of these aren't doable with the routes we have today. With the vast amounts of Californians moving to Colorado, a LA-Denver would be worthwhile too. It is fun to dream when $$$ isn't an option.

John_Perkowski wrote:Is there the density to justify this service on the Northern Route? (Empire Builder)

I have no idea...

I think not, Col. Perkowski; once West of Minneapolis, there is no population center that could be reached using my "one night's enough" maxim.

Oh, am I, as a fellow Member or in any other capacity free to impose a "one night rule?" Of course not; but I have a feeling if any of the Auto Train Corp "founders' remain "live and kickin'" today, they would agree. Who knows, had it not been for the Louisville misadventure, which resulted in their "cutting corners" with maintenance resulting in costly derailments, they might still have a going concern today.

I would look at extra services from the existing terminals . Perhaps Lorton to the Midwest ( atached to the capital ) . This would leave after the Florida autotrain arrived , so concievably some one could ride up form sanford to Lorton , spend 1/2 day in that area , then continue on to the midwest that nite .
but is main attraction would be chicago area - nec area .
Other option would be lorton - alanta area on the Crescent .

This is not dreaming.

This is policy exploration at the level of "is there the kernel of a business plan in here?"

Denver-Dallas, at 804 miles, qualifies for consideration.

So does Atlanta-Dallas at 782 miles.

For Mr Norman: I think one night out has to be the minimum threshold for this kind of service. The economics of the motel stay are about 10% of the total cost of the trip; without that, Amtrak has even less range of revenue in which to compete.

John Perkowski

Why does the dwell time to load/unload at an intermediate point have to be endured by the through train? Why not just set out the intermediate block and let the through train continue?

I’m using Selkirk, NY in the example below as its a big dot on the r.r. map. There seem to be open tracts of land near the CSX's yard. Amtrak has service facilities just 10 miles away in Rensselaer, NY. I haven’t checked to see if clearances would Superliners could get there, or if that base would have the various capacities to service/turn an AT trainset.

Suppose 52 was blocked thusly:
Road Power
Selkirk Sleepers
Selkirk Diner
Selkirk Coaches
Selkirk Lounge
Lorton Coaches
Lorton Diner
Lorton Sleepers
Lorton Auto Racks
Selkirk Racks

When 52 arrives at Lorton, the road power pulls the Selkirk passenger cars forward. The Lorton switcher then pulls the Lorton block (passenger cars and racks) clear, leaving the Selkirk racks standing on the main. The road power then backs down onto the Selkirk racks. 52 completes an air test and highballs north. Dwell time: 45 minutes, maybe less. After 52’s gone, the switch crew can set to the task of spotting the Lorton coaches and racks for unloaded.

If a northern terminal were located along I-87 just south of Selkirk, NY. This would permit traffic to flow from I-87 north and south and I-90 east and west.

Passengers: from Selkirk, Montreal is only 4½ hours away; Boston and New York City are 3 hours; and Buffalo is 5 hours.

Driving north to go south might seem counter intuitive to the NYC/NJ passengers … it’d be 3 or 4 hours driving, vs: 19 ~ 21 hours if they simply drove.

Thoughts?

* JB *
Agent at Clicquot
w.f.p.t. | w.l.s.

I totally agree, Colonel (sir)--

This would mean that any proposal for a service such as Harmon-Buffalo using the Maple Leaf or Harmon-Plattsburgh on the Adirondack is not even on the table.

But I must stand on my "one night's enough' thoughts.

Oh; Agent-Clicquot?. how will we move tri level auto racks and possibly Superliners to the West Shore. Where is there a PRR-NYC(WS) interchange other than through the labyrinth of Jersey City/Weehawken?

One reason the current auto train has worked is that the snowbirds have long stays in Florida. If you are going on a short trip, the expense of bringing your car wouln't be justified; you would just rent one. So, you need to find markets where travelers tend to have long stays. The right distance beween city pairs is important, but we also have to know this other information. For instance, Washington-Chicago would work from a time and distance perspective, but maybe not from a lengh of stay perspective. If we considered ski areas as destinations, would there be enough of a market for long-stay passengers? If so, how about CHI-Denver or CHI-Salt Lake? San Diego-Salt Lake?