"Almost real" EMD locomotives

Pneudyne wrote:

jamoldover wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:19 am So basically an EMD version of ALCo's "World Locomotive" FA variant.

[...]
Firstly, on the timeline:

I do not know when the EMD B was first announced, but the first order, 40 of the A1A-A1A variant for the then Eastern Bengal Railway, was recorded in ‘Diesel Railway Traction’ (DRT) 1952 September. Initial delivery was expected in 1953 May.

The initial EFVM, Brasil order for the B-B variant was recorded in DRT 1953 January.

The Alco-GE “World” locomotive (DL-500), as it then was, was announced in Railway Age 1953 June 22. That was just ahead of the split between Alco and GE, so actual production was under Alco aegis.

[...]

I have never found information as to the exact origins of the EMD model B. The model G was conceived quite early on, as recorded in that well-circulated 1951 June letter from EMD to its overseas associates. Possibly the B was an offshoot of the G programme, at a time when it appeared that some overseas railways still had a preference for cab units. Body style aside, the B was certainly similar to the G-12. It had a longer frame, 44’6’ as compared with 43’0”, with corresponding longer truck centres, 26’6” as compared with 25’0”, but the equipment was essentially the same with a similar, although not identical, layout. As an aside, the 44’6”/26’6” dimensions were used by Clyde, Australia for its version of the G, ostensibly to meet Queensland Railways’ request for a larger fuel tank.
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Sorry for the late reply Pneudyne, but firstly let me thank you for sharing the Model B and Model R brochures, which are of great interest to me.
In the meantime Mr. Peter Christensen of Denmark has shared with me some of his findings in the archival material of the Swedish manufacturer NoHAB, from which we can learn that the idea to develop an export type main-line locomotive based on the 12-567 engine (then still in its B version) surfaced around 1950. By early 1951 EMD decided they were going to design this as a Bo'Bo' road-switcher configuration. However, the first order received was from East Pakistan (Bangladesh) for 50 of what became known as the Model B-12, which are a carbody-type of locomotive. These were on order by May 1952 but eventually only 49 of the type were ever built, with the first 9 going in summer of 1953 to Brazil, and only 40 delivered in three batches to East Pakistan (with different bogies).

According to the 1953 "Progress Report" of EMD's "Advance Engineering Section", prepared in December of that year, development of the Model B started early in 1952 while the Model G design project had officially started in November 1952 and was intended to have as much component commonality with the Model B as possible. Thus while the G was perhaps conceived earlier, it was developed after the B was.

ConstanceR46 wrote:The EMD R very much resembles a missing link between the MRS-1 and G16. Any other photos of the concept?

This is actually true - EMD's Co'Co' export design's evolution started with the MRS-1, through the Model R and a proposed "mini" SD-7/9 before finally settling on an enlarged G12/8.

According to the 1953 "Progress Report" of EMD's "Advance Engineering Section", prepared in December of that year, when the Export Sales Department asked asked in the early 1950s for a 1500hp [i.e. 16-cylindered 567 engine] general purpose export type, the initial response was to try and adapt the MRS-1 type. Eventually it was decided that adapting the existing model to the new requirements is a non-starter, and design of the brand-new Model R started in May 1953. It was described as "... incorporating the features of [the] SD-7 and the MRS[-1] ... ". After a basic design was made, the project was passed GM Diesel in Canada for completion.

By the 1955 EMD Engineering Report it is stated that "Some preliminary design work was begun on an export version of the SD-9." This new version was to meet original requirements for the Model R, and "Although [it] does not meet all the original specifications..." it would be suitable for most potential buyers. The new design was supposed to use existing tooling as the perceived limited market precluded the development of a completely new model. It was claimed that "The major difference would be in the underframe, which would be of comparatively lightweight construction" and new trucks would be made using SD-9 patterns adapted for compatibility to various gauges.
Eventually, EMD decided to develop a new line of export flexicoil trucks with cast frames of Bo, A1A and Co configuration. The last to be designed was the 3-motor type, which was only completed in 1957

The (internal) EMD Locomotive Section Annual Report for 1956, dated 20.03.1957, stated that the SD-9-based design was eventually rejected as it was considered as too large and heavy. Instead, the new Model G-16 was to be developed, "... patterned more after the [Model] "G" design as far as is practical." The new design was supposed to re-use as much of the parts and equipment as was possible, with the notable exceptions of trucks and underframes.

Thanks for the background on the G16, Chen. Evidently the pathway thereto was quite tortuous.

The mention of EMD’s adoption of cast frame flexicoil trucks for its export models reminds me of something I heard (from a reliable source) about the initial South African Railways (SAR) line-service diesel locomotive order circa 1957. This went to GE for 45 units of its U12B model. Apparently the two tender finalists were GE and EMD, the latter presumably with its G12 model in Bo-Bo form. SAR wanted cast-frame trucks, with the frames supplied by GSC, with whom it had an established relationship. GE agreed to provide a cast-frame version of its floating bolster truck, but EMD resisted, offering only its fabricated flexicoil type. Thus, GE got the order. (Trucks aside, both the GE and EMD offerings were technically acceptable.)

That probably put GE in prime position for the following order for 115 low-axle loading units for use in South West Africa (SWA, Namibia), the tender for which closed late in March 1958. Unknown though is whether EMD, or its any of its associates, bid on that tender. At the time, I imagine that EMD itself may have been reluctant to build special running gear (1-Co-Co-1) for a G16 variant, but it is something that its associates might have done, with Henschel being a strong candidate. Around the same time, Henschel supplied the TT12 to Ghana. This was something of a lengthened, low-profile AA12 to fit the tight loading gauge. It had Co-Co running gear, but with low-profile trucks that combined the flexicoil bolster with English Electric-style underslung equalizing beams. Henschel was of course an established supplier to SAR, famously associated with the 25 class fleet of condensing steam locomotives. Nonetheless, information on who else bid for the SWA fleet is very scarce. It is known that Cockerill of Belgium did, using its established Baldwin-Westinghouse technology on 1-Co-Co-1 running gear. And almost certainly English Electric (an existing supplier to SAR of electric locomotives) would have done. It seems unlikely that EMD would have let that one pass unless it was sure that it had very little chance. Given that EMD did not get any SAR business until the later 1960s, possibly SAR had developed an antipathy basis its first tender experience. Still, somewhere there may lurk data for an “almost real” 1-Co-Co-1 derivative of the G16.

Interesting is that within a couple of years or so, EMD was more inclined to offer “specials” from its home facilities, examples being the GA12 and GA12C for Indian Railways, albeit both derived from the GA8.


Cheers,