All Things Cascades incl Vancouver

wigwagfan wrote:

It should also be noted that these records were set WITHOUT the glorified and romanticized Talgo trains running these schedules.

There are still 2 Talgo trainsets running on Cascades service and I, one of the .1%, am always happy to see them pull into the station when I'm riding.

Does your average rider remember it was Talgo equipment in the crash, or even what equipment is what.?

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 5:57 am If they gave a damn about the equipment, they'd stay away from the Talgos because Shortcut Accident. We have too many threads to point to over the accident near Seattle and how badly the Talgos performed there, the ban on the equipment at the state level, and their final destination. I'm not up to rehashing that.

This is the most baseless claim of the decade here.

Airplanes are not built for passengers to survive a plane falling out of the sky at hundreds of miles per hour. The standards of commercial flight and maintenance are such that there should be no planes falling out of the sky, so planes are not built to survive a crash from altitude.

The Talgo crash also shouldn't have happened. Full stop. There was inadequate training on a new route and the engineer broke the speed limit. For some reason we still continue to build trains to a crash survival strength standard promulgated by the post office in pre-1920 times in order to preserve the mail in event of a crash. Do some deep digging, this is where our crash survival strength numbers come from. Not a modern scientific study (and by modern I mean the era of diesel engines, steel passenger cars, polio survival, microwave ovens, the internet, plastics, my grandparents being born...)

by David Benton » Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:36 am
Does your average rider remember it was Talgo equipment in the crash, or even what equipment is what.?

No he probably doesn't.

On a different related topic, and yes, I've read a bit above pre-pandemic... my Bostonian friend is wondering (as she's modeling a Cascades HSR) about putting a station at Blaine next to US Customs. As she says, "It's meant to serve as a general checkpoint for all international rail services in the area."

But I get the feeling that she doesn't know current operations.

So what actually goes on at the border on the Cascades? I didn't see a pad or any real station along the border near Peace Arch in Blaine, WS, so... I'm wondering who has cross the border here and can remember if they stop the train at the border itself, and how per-clearance worked from Seattle north.

I don't know how it works now, but the plan is that customs facilities is built at the Vancouver BC station so that passenger disembarking from the US go through Canadian customs after leaving the train, and passengers traveling to the US go through customs before boarding the train.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 7:38 am So what actually goes on at the border on the Cascades? I didn't see a pad or any real station along the border near Peace Arch in Blaine, WS, so... I'm wondering who has cross the border here and can remember if they stop the train at the border itself, and how per-clearance worked from Seattle north.

Amtrak makes sure you have your passport in the US, then you take the train all the way to Vancouver. On the train, you fill out your forms, then you do all your border process at Pacific Central, off the train.

The way back into the US, you fill out your forms at Pacific Central, they stop at the border for 10-15 minutes to collect forms and walk the train, then you are on your way again.

The video is four years old, but since it's a "history" video, I thought I'd share it here:

This is a dynamite ride. I've been the entire length of the route a few times and love most of it. I hated losing the Talgo as it was perfect for this route, although they don't love American track.

That said there is a long list of improvements to be made.
1. More Vancouver trains
2. better border crossing
3. way to service the ferries better!
4. disconnect the three routes that happen to appear to be in a straight line (The PDX-SEA trunk, the vancouver branch, the Oregon branch). They do not have similar ridership levels or timing and it does a disservice to force one physical train to serve them all
5. Dump Amtrak - the bosses live 2000 miles away and dream of Acelas all day and night. Whoever runs Sounder should be running Cascade under contract to Amtrak and/or the states. You really want management nearby.

Regarding that ferry statement on#3, perhaps even "boat trains" that run to Bellingham to meet the Alaska ferry and shuttle to King Street and Tukwila/Seatac. Two coaches and a baggage go north for sailings and come south from arrivals. No need for food of any sort. This way the regular Vancouver BC train does not delay if the ferry is late.

Tadman wrote:1. More Vancouver trains
2. better border crossing
3. way to service the ferries better!

All of these improvements have nothing to do with Oregon, making the following point even more important:

Tadman wrote:4. disconnect the three routes that happen to appear to be in a straight line (The PDX-SEA trunk, the vancouver branch, the Oregon branch). They do not have similar ridership levels or timing and it does a disservice to force one physical train to serve them all

Probably the biggest problem in my eyes is that the slightly-over-100 mile segment from Portland to Eugene doesn't need a 300 passenger European tilting train that requires advance reservations, a check-in process, baggage car...basically it isn't a long distance train, but it is operated like a long distance train. If I'm in Salem and want to take a quick trip to Portland, I should be able to do it with the ease of a bus - show up, pay my fare, sit down and go. But I can't, which is why Amtrak/ODOT/WSDOT manages about 100 total boardings per train per day south of Portland (so roughly 400 passengers a day on average) while Interstate 5 has at its lowest point over 70,000 vehicles a day. Not including 99W, 99E, or the various other highways and roads...

However, Oregon also lacks the population or the financial capability of more trains (not to mention the choice of dealing with Union Pacific which would rather eliminate all the trains, or having to buy 60 miles of track from BNSF and then paying to upgrade a 10 MPH branchline with stick rail to 80 MPH passenger capable track, complete with welded rail, CTC, PTC, sidings, etc., on a line that was originally built as an interurban and has numerous street running stretches that will permanently limit train speeds to around 10 MPH). So either we get stuck paying for Washington's trains for the rich to travel to Vancouver, BC, passport required, or for those who can afford the ferry ride to their vacation homes in the San Juans while negating our own actual transit needs, or we admit the train is the wrong solution for Oregon and actually is an impediment to travel, rather than an "option" to driving.

At least, eliminating the train south of Portland would free up a lot of equipment availability to increase frequency between Portland and Seattle, where there is a demonstrated need for more trains...but Amtrak could also solve the problem by eliminating six hour layovers in Portland and Seattle and simply turn the train around. Some trains spend more time on a yard track than they do actually carrying revenue passengers, and somehow some people find that acceptable.

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 11:22 pm

Tadman wrote:4. disconnect the three routes that happen to appear to be in a straight line (The PDX-SEA trunk, the vancouver branch, the Oregon branch). They do not have similar ridership levels or timing and it does a disservice to force one physical train to serve them all

Probably the biggest problem in my eyes is that the slightly-over-100 mile segment from Portland to Eugene doesn't need a 300 passenger European tilting train that requires advance reservations, a check-in process, baggage car...basically it isn't a long distance train, but it is operated like a long distance train. If I'm in Salem and want to take a quick trip to Portland, I should be able to do it with the ease of a bus - show up, pay my fare, sit down and go. But I can't, which is why Amtrak/ODOT/WSDOT manages about 100 total boardings per train per day south of Portland (so roughly 400 passengers a day on average) while Interstate 5 has at its lowest point over 70,000 vehicles a day. Not including 99W, 99E, or the various other highways and roads...

Greyhound lists three daily roundtrips between Portland and Eugene (all on Flixbus), two of which stop in Salem, and a separate bus operated by Pacific Crest between Portland and Salem for three services total between Portland and Salem (the Pacific Crest service is also ticketed as an Amtrak Thruway service). There are 5 additional Amtrak Thruway bus services between Portland and Eugene, all stopping at Salem, so there are at least 8 bus services between Portland and Salem in addition to the Cascades service and 7 between Portland and Eugene (I didn't check if other bus lines also offered service between these points).

The two Cascades trains south of Portland are providing services on routes that are already have more frequent bus services than train services. This does beg the question: how many of those 100 passengers a train are traveling through Portland instead of to Portland?

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 11:22 pm So either we get stuck paying for Washington's trains for the rich to travel to Vancouver, BC, passport required, or for those who can afford the ferry ride to their vacation homes in the San Juans while negating our own actual transit needs, or we admit the train is the wrong solution for Oregon and actually is an impediment to travel, rather than an "option" to driving.

As far as I can tell, the Talgo trains that remain in use on the Cascades line are the property of the state of Oregon, and those trains (albeit pooled with the other Cascades train b/c having maintenance bases in Seattle and Portland would be expensive) provide services to the State of Oregon, and obviously the state considers them a useful benefit and protection against a catastrophic failure of I-5 since the state is also subsidizing bus services along the I-5 corridor. I suppose Oregon could throw all their eggs in one basket and just pay the consequences when (for example), a truck hits a bridge abutment carrying I-5 over something and causes the highway to collapse (as happened in Philadelphia in 2023, but that failure to have alternatives would also be poor governance especially since those busses you claim aren't available use I-5. (Incidentally, WSDOT has to make the same choice about relying on I-5/BC Hwy 99 from the Canadian border to the Columbia River and BC has to consider the reliability of Highway 99/I-5 south of Vancouver.)

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 11:22 pm At least, eliminating the train south of Portland would free up a lot of equipment availability to increase frequency between Portland and Seattle, where there is a demonstrated need for more trains...but Amtrak could also solve the problem by eliminating six hour layovers in Portland and Seattle and simply turn the train around. Some trains spend more time on a yard track than they do actually carrying revenue passengers, and somehow some people find that acceptable.

As noted earlier, eliminating the trains south of Oregon would mean that Oregon's trains are removed from Cascades service, with no extra trainsets available for north of Portland services (unless WSDOT managed to outbid everyone else for those trains when ODOT sells them). It takes two trainsets to provide the existing Portland - Eugene frequency which shows that by pooling its trains with WSDOT trains, ODOT is operating a less expensive per passenger service in the I-5 corridor than if it had to build a maintenance base for its trains, and provide its own spare capacity.

From the timetable the only train that has a daytime layover in Portland lays over for 2 hours; the schedules originating in Seattle allow for morning, midday, and evening departures south. It is clear that decisions were made to not run trains from Seattle in late-afternoon, but instead to run trains at roughly 6:00 and 8:00 PM to allow a full day and/or dinner in Seattle and an evening return to points south for those traveling to Seattle for the day. If Oregon and Washington thought a 4:00 PM departure and dinner on the train would be preferred to dining in Seattle and then boarding the train, they'd fill that gap.

If I recall correctly, the equipment set allows for a single train to be out of service for planned maintenance that can't be performed in a single overnight operation without cancelling a scheduled train, so, yes, there should be a train sitting in the Seattle yard and not running if reliable on schedule running is desired. WSDOT and ODOT could choose to sweat their assets, and not keep spare equipment available, but that would create unreliable service by causing cancellations and delays.

This service is currently run with 5 trainsets if I am reading Wikipedia correctly, but 8 Cascades-only Airo trainsets are on order from Siemens, which should allow an increase in frequencies.

Put bluntly, separating the Cascades service into 3 services would require more trainsets, more maintenance facilities, and more personal to provide the same level of service with the same reliability than pooling everything so that trains can be rotated through a single maintenance facility.

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2024 11:22 pm At least, eliminating the train south of Portland would free up a lot of equipment availability to increase frequency between Portland and Seattle, where there is a demonstrated need for more trains...but Amtrak could also solve the problem by eliminating six hour layovers in Portland and Seattle and simply turn the train around. Some trains spend more time on a yard track than they do actually carrying revenue passengers, and somehow some people find that acceptable.

Eliminate any trains south of Portland within Oregon will most likely result with Oregon eliminating it's subsidies for Cascades entirely. I wish more people would look at the consequences of their proposals more. Get out of your box and look at the issues from another viewpoint.

I don't think anybody is suggesting eliminating that train. I'm suggesting that it should be a shuttle train doing something like 90 minute turns with an engine and 2-3 horizons or gallery cars and a cab car or NPCU. No reservations, no food, no glamor. Just very frequent basic service that is not tied to the goings on north of the Columbia river.

Right now its kind of crazy that a short commuter-esque ride can be completely demolished in timekeeping by one of the four full-route runs (Whether bus or train) by things like the border crossing, Fraser bridge, or general road traffic. Let's be honest, if the train is 45+ minutes late by the time a southbound hits PDX, nobody is sticking around for 60 or 90 minutes to ride. Thevy've gotten in their car and drove, and arrived in Eugene perhaps before the late southbound is even in Portland.

Have you looked at the Cascades schedule? The schedule for the Portland - Eugene section is 2:35 northbound and 2:40 southbound (busses vary between 2:50 and 3:00 per schedule). Not sure how you managed to get a 90 minute turn out of that.

Tadman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:11 pm I don't think anybody is suggesting eliminating that train. I'm suggesting that it should be a shuttle train doing something like 90 minute turns with an engine and 2-3 horizons or gallery cars and a cab car or NPCU. No reservations, no food, no glamor. Just very frequent basic service that is not tied to the goings on north of the Columbia river.

So you want Oregon to give away their recently bought brand new Talgo trainsets, which they now own and allow Amtrak to use, for 30 year old Horizon railcars? Admittingly, the trains south of Portland were mostly empty, but these train sets were almost full as they were extended north to Seattle. Likewise when heading south. They provided a one seat ride to Seattle, and south of Portland without the need to transfer in Portland.
Your suggestion involves a transfer in Portland, a lower level of service the citizens of Oregon do not wish to subsidize.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:01 am So you want Oregon to give away their recently bought brand new Talgo trainsets, which they now own and allow Amtrak to use, for 30 year old Horizon railcars?

Effectively, Oregon already has given away a $45 million subsidy to WSDOT with little in return, as those Talgo trainsets rarely to never venture south of Portland. They are maintained by Washington state residents who contribute nothing to Oregon's economy or Oregon's income tax base, using suppliers based in Washington that contribute to Washington's sales tax base but not Oregon, and pay Washington property tax, not Oregon. Meanwhile, Oregon trains ARE Horizons, as I witness daily through Salem. So, it's already being done.

electricron wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:01 amThey provided a one seat ride to Seattle, and south of Portland without the need to transfer in Portland. Your suggestion involves a transfer in Portland, a lower level of service the citizens of Oregon do not wish to subsidize.

You're telling me that a cross-transfer platform is so incredibly problematic that it is worth a subsidy of tens of millions of dollars so that someone doesn't have to get out of their seat, walk to a door, walk 15 feet, walk through another door, and find another seat? Are you seriously THAT LAZY?

People "transfer" all the time, whether it's from a MAX parking lot to a MAX train, from WES to MAX, from MAX to a bus, from the Blue Line MAX to the Red Line MAX if they are travelling from Gresham to PDX or downtown Hillsboro to PDX...to suggest that somehow, it is incredibly difficult for a cross-platform transfer at Union Station for someone to transfer from one train to another train, under a shelter no-less, is that major of an issue? I guess that the passenger traffic through PDX, that outnumbers Union Station by something like 100 to 1, having to walk from the end of the Long Term Parking Garage to their American Airlines gate at the far end of the C concourse...that doesn't exist thousands of times a day yet it does...