ALC-42E Acquisition and Planned Operation

The recent discussion in the Siemens Growing Pains thread made me realize that we may need a separate topic for the ALC-42E. I'm not going to go through and pull those posts as it would disturb the flow of a discussion that includes both the 42 and 42E. So I'm setting up this thread, with a link (above) to the previous thread.

We also have ongoing discussions on the ALC-42 and Airo threads.

Some of what I've found specifically on the "E" variant:

Siemens (PDF): PDF

Interesting looking paint scheme:



Reddit:



Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Charger

WDTX is a spoof account, I would not take any liveries they post as possible until you see them in the metal.

Jeff,

I understand that we can't go on in the Growing Pains topic, but to make an specific topic for an ALC42-E. The only difference between a ALC-42 and ALC-42E is that the locomotive has DC-Link cables betweeen the APV and ALC-42E and that the engineer is capable to switch between diesel and electric power modes, is nonsense in my opinion.

But to continue my question from the Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives topic.

SRich wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:07 pm ...
ALC-42E has already an Inverter for HEP needs. So the APV shall not have an additional inverter for HEP. Power for the traction motors/HEP will come from the DC link between the APV and ALC42E. The APV with pan and transformer will also have two powered trucks, Amtrak has confirmed that.

So at least the APV will have 4 traction motors. The combined power from an Electric ICT( completely powered from the wires) wil be at least 7824 HP or 5832 kW excluding HEP load( up to 1 MW or 1000 kW).

When in Diesel mode the Engine will produce a max of 3100 kW including HEP load.

I wonder if in Dieselmode 1 locomotive is powerful enough for keeping up an 8 car train with max HEP load of 1 MW and
have only 2100 kW(2.817 HP) left for traction. Its means that the full 3.912 HP isn't there for traction.

So maybe a second ALC-42 is needed for diesel territory.

I get that the P42-DC has only a 800 kW HEP generator, and the load maybe only 600 kW. That still leaves the question open if an single ALC-42E is powerful enough to power an ICT in dieselmode, when there is only 2100 to 2500 kW available for traction power.

And if its not enough, what could be a possible solution?

Both the P42DC and ALC42 locomotives have the exact same horsepower rating and kW ratings in diesel mode. If a single P42DC locomotive and pull a train, so should an ALC42 locomotive, with maybe the very small difference of 200 kW increase in HEP power causing a 200 kW decrease in pulling/pushing power.
The SC44 locomotives being used in the Midwest pulling 6 to 8 Venture cars running at 110 mph in both Illinois and Michigan without any difficulties. Why would the circumstances be any different on the east coast?
If the supposedly two extra motors under the "E" pantograph car are in service, wouldn't all four or six motors be working less to maintain the same speed and ultimately be needing the same amount of power? Will the extra two motors be able to be powered from the diesel? Will they only be powered from the pantograph?
If they could not do the job, and ultimately required two locomotives on these regional day trains, would Amtrak be buying them as a cost saving measure? I doubt so.
Additionally, the 8 Venture car trainsets will only be running under the catenary. Only 6 Venture car trainsets are proposed to run in diesel mode away from the catenary. Much ado about nothing, imho.

The 8 car Airo sets will be operating in under diesel power in Virginia. The only services south of DC planning on using the 6 car Airos are the Carolinian and Palmetto.

electricron wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:34 pm Both the P42DC and ALC42 locomotives have the exact same horsepower rating and kW ratings in diesel mode. If a single P42DC locomotive and pull a train, so should an ALC42 locomotive, with maybe the very small difference of 200 kW increase in HEP power causing a 200 kW decrease in pulling/pushing power.
The SC44 locomotives being used in the Midwest pulling 6 to 8 Venture cars running at 110 mph in both Illinois and Michigan without any difficulties. Why would the circumstances be any different on the east coast?

The SC-44 has 200 HP more power. The ALC-42E has at least for an 8 car train, have to push/pull a APV who weight is much more then a simple car. The APV has 4 traction motors, a transformer, an electric cabinet, one or 2 pans etc.

If the supposedly two extra motors under the "E" pantograph car are in service, wouldn't all four or six motors be working less to maintain the same speed and ultimately be needing the same amount of power? Will the extra two motors be able to be powered from the diesel? Will they only be powered from the pantograph?
If they could not do the job, and ultimately required two locomotives on these regional day trains, would

There are two powered trucks on the APV, that means that ther are 4 traction motors, instead of two.
If the diesel engine must power 8 traction motors, HEP and auxilery power... then 4200 HP is too low.

Amtrak be buying them as a cost saving measure? I doubt so.
Additionally, the 8 Venture car trainsets will only be running under the catenary. Only 6 Venture car trainsets are proposed to run in diesel mode away from the catenary. Much ado about nothing, imho.

Then why buy an diesel engine and APV with pan when a cab car and ACS-64 are more then capable to drive on the electrified portion of the N.E.C. No need to buy ALC-42E's, no need to buy APV's, much more simple proven application, fully electric instead of buying a Electric/Diesel-Electric ICT.

You know that 8 car ICT also will ride on the not electified parts of US railroad's

How much lighter is the average Airo coach versus the average Amfleet coach? 4200HP for eight traction motors might be competitive if the Airo coach set is meaningfully lighter than the equivalent Amfleet coach set.

Let''s make some sense of the math, once again....
SC-44 = 4400 horsepower from diesel = 3281 kilowatts -800 kilowatts HEP = 2481 kilowatts
ALC-42 = 4200 horsepower from diesel = 3132 kilowatts -1000 kilowatts HEP = 2132 kilowatts
ALC-42E = 4200 horsepower from diesel = 3132 kilowatts -1000 kilowatts HEP = 2132 kilowatts

SC-44 locomotive has 4 motors rated at 729 kW kilowatts each = 2916 kilowatts
ALC-42 locomotive has 4 motors rated at 729 kilowatts each = 2916 kilowatts
ALC-42E locomotive has 6 motors rated at 729 kilowatts each = 4374 kilowatts
Note, per Wiki the APV will supply electricity to the ALC-42E as well as additional motors on its own powered truck. I wish to point out, not trucks.

There's is no way a 4200 horsepower, or 2132 kilowatts locomotive after 1000 kilowatts HEP, can run six 729 kilowatt motors, or 4374 kilowatts, at the same time.
There's is no way a 4200 horsepower, or 2132 kilowatts locomotive after 1000 kilowatts HEP, can run four 729 kilowatt motors, or 2916 kilowatts, at the same time either.
2132 kilowatts - 2916 kilowatts = -784 kilowatts.
On paper it should not happen, yet it does every day in California, Illinois, and Michigan at speeds up to 110 mph.
So, the motors are over rated, or HEP power is over rated., and possibly both are over rated.

Just because the HEP is rated at 1000 kilowatts, it does not mean the load will always be 1000 kilowatts. Just because the motors are rated at max load at 729 kilowatts mean Amtrak will ever need 729 kilowatts from the motors.

Are the ratings you've cited the continuous ratings or the 1/5/10min peak ratings? I'm trying to find more detailed data on these locomotives to figure out the continuous ratings of the motors and/or their VFDs plus the HEP equipment, and it is surprisingly difficult!

Everyone:

When does Amtrak expect to have a prototype ALC-42E unit built and available from Siemens?

Will this unit be going to the USDOT TTC facility in Pueblo, Colorado for the beginning of a vigorous
testing and evaluation program before final delivery to Amtrak?

Has there been any possible timeline mentioned about when Siemens plans to build and deliver the
ALC-42E unit order to Amtrak being aware that they have a backlog of rail equipment orders?

Has Siemens made any fact sheets and/or other related ALC-42E materials/descriptions available?

These are the questions that should be answered before we speculate about the internal workings
of the ALC-42E units...MACTRAXX

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:33 am Are the ratings you've cited the continuous ratings or the 1/5/10min peak ratings? I'm trying to find more detailed data on these locomotives to figure out the continuous ratings of the motors and/or their VFDs plus the HEP equipment, and it is surprisingly difficult!

I got all that data, as I added earlier, from WIKI. Wiki lists their sources where they got the data from. Good luck finding more data.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:37 am Let''s make some sense of the math, once again....
SC-44 = 4400 horsepower from diesel = 3281 kilowatts -600 kilowatts HEP = 2681 kilowatts
ALC-42 = 4200 horsepower from diesel = 3132 kilowatts -1000 kilowatts HEP = 2132 kilowatts
ALC-42E = 4200 horsepower from diesel = 3132 kilowatts -1000 kilowatts HEP = 2132 kilowatts

SC-44 locomotive has 4 motors rated at 729 kW kilowatts each = 2916 kilowatts
ALC-42 locomotive has 4 motors rated at 729 kilowatts each = 2916 kilowatts
Dual power ICT has 6 motors rated at 729 kilowatts each = 4374 kilowatts

@electricron
I must say that the ICT has indeed only 3 powered trucks instead of four. I have seen it on the Amtrak website that both trucks of the APV are powered but its is gone, perhaps it wasn't the correct information. The current info on Amtrak states that an dual power ICT has 6 instead of 8 with 2 powered trucks on the ALC-42E and 1 truck on the APV.

But i stil wonder if an long ICT in diesel mode is strong enough for future 125 mph operation, with only 4 tractions motors available of the 6 traction motors on a ICT. I know that an Amtrak ACS-64 has atleast 5000 kW to 6400 kW and a single ACS-64 can bring 18 cars to 135 mph in just 2.5 minutes, but thats in electric mode and HEP needs(up to 1MW) is drawn from a seperate static inverter.

We will see it in 2025... when the prototype is due for testing.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:12 pm Everyone:

When does Amtrak expect to have a prototype ALC-42E unit built and available from Siemens?

Will this unit be going to the USDOT TTC facility in Pueblo, Colorado for the beginning of a vigorous
testing and evaluation program before final delivery to Amtrak?

Has there been any possible timeline mentioned about when Siemens plans to build and deliver the
ALC-42E unit order to Amtrak being aware that they have a backlog of rail equipment orders?

Has Siemens made any fact sheets and/or other related ALC-42E materials/descriptions available?

These are the questions that should be answered before we speculate about the internal workings
of the ALC-42E units...MACTRAXX

I don't think a single ALC-42E shall be tested on Pueblo. The ALC-42E is a standard ALC-42 with 2 extra options. First, a DC-link and equipment are installed in the locomotive. Second is that the alternator will also capable to start the diesel engine, perhaps from electric power when the ICT is stil in electric mode.

But i do think so that the first complete 8 car electric / diesel-electric ICT will be tested on USDOT TTC facility and the North East Corridor.

The problem isn’t top speed, it’s getting there. The “110” mph running on the Empire Corridor takes forever to get to speed, and the videos I’ve seen from operations out west are pathetically bad, too.

Seriously, we’re talking barely 3000 hp for traction, to get a train to 110mph? Why even bother? Brightline has shown, if nothing else, you need two locomotives.

Nasadowsk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:24 am The problem isn’t top speed, it’s getting there. The “110” mph running on the Empire Corridor takes forever to get to speed, and the videos I’ve seen from operations out west are pathetically bad, too.

Seriously, we’re talking barely 3000 hp for traction, to get a train to 110mph? Why even bother? Brightline has shown, if nothing else, you need two locomotives.

So double-head it? Oh wait, that's double the diesel being used...

From Hilton Suites Boca Raton--

I must wonder why Brightline did not order cab cars such as Siemens built for OBB and CD.with their RailJet sets.

It just seems as if with Brightline that two SC-44 engines and from what I've observed, both engines operate (of course as others here who have taken a Brightline joyride have surely noted, their stations are "not exactly" railfan friendly).

Possibly FEC required Brightline to have two engines on each set and perhaps Brightline envisions expanded consists, but failing either, Brightline sets appear way overpowered.