Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2014

The DOT estimate for restoration of the line is $43 million

Stop giving this number! This is another one of the lies your group keeps pushing. You know as well as the rest of us that this was a hypothetical "20 year investment" number DOT put out that included purchasing new locomotives and passenger cars, as well as building a new shop. These are things that DO NOT REFLECT cost of track restoration and are not necessary expenditures with a designated operator (like the Adirondack Scenic). DOT has been quoted on several occasions saying that it will cost around $16 million to bring the tracks up to 40mph operation. ARPS says $15 million. Those sound like agreeing estimates to me. ARTA is the only group claiming that preposterous number. You could put the tracks back in all the way to Malone for $43 million.

Probably closer to zero once the salvage value of the steel is included

HA! This is probably the second biggest lie your group keeps telling. Steel rails are not gold, they are scrap steel. They have a set value depending on the market. Current scrap value is around $270 a ton. The rail on this line is 105lbs to the yard. This means the total value can be calculated, which I have done here before and still stand by my numbers. I won't break it down again but there is less than $3 million worth of scrap value between Big Moose and Lake Placid (don't think for a second that you will be successful in ripping the tracks up south of there). That is delivered directly to the scrap yard with zero expense to get it there. No one from your organization has once offered an explanation on how it will magically be taken up and then get there with no labor or fuel costs. Then you need to lift and dispose of the ties, items you claim are too crumbling to hold a train, but are worth "hundreds of thousands of dollars on the resale market", even when it is a known fact that you can no longer sell creosote treated lumber in NYS for anything other then railroad usage, BY LAW! Tie disposal has been found to be around $12 per tie, based on the recent Big Moose extension. A tie every two feet, 80 miles of railroad... Also a calculable number. This is ASSUMING the rails will be scrapped and not held in storage until it is determined that the trail was a bad idea and they get put back in (there is precedence for this, all the rail from the Ulster and Delaware between Roxbury and Grand Gorge is in storage with a plan to put it back some day). How you people continue to maintain that the salvage value will pay to build an 80 mile trail is still baffling. How many of your supporters still think you plan on paving it? I'm finding many more then you might think.

We keep refuting your claims Tony but YOU are the one not listening. You just continue to spin. If stubbornness and arrogance were proportional to height, you would be 80ft tall.

And for the record, the Adirondack Railway averaged around 200 riders per day, post-Olympics. They had over 20,000 riders in less then a year of sporadic operation. Poor management was the Railroad's ultimate demise, with money that should have been used for track work going to other places.

And while I'm ranting: Where does ARTA plan the trail to start? Old Forge? Big Moose? Tupper Lake? I've heard all three within the last year. Or is it Remsen like all your T-shirts and literature proclaim? You guys really need to get together to get your stories straight.

The idea that once the rail and ties are gone the subsequent "walking" trail will not be a burden to taxpayers. I've asked the opponents of the CMRR these questions and get crickets for for an answer.

The ROW will still be subjected to the ravages of nature. Brush cutting, tree removal, culvert repair, drainage and bridge maintenance expenses will still be there. Then there is surfacing (like a railroad)

the sledders, 4 wheelers and dirt bikers are going to raise holy hell with your "path". On we go with this but TG and Co continue with their anti-rail stand with the continued phrase " better uses" for the

corridor. Whether it's up in the Adirondacks or down in the Catskill's removing an existing operating railroad operation is beyond insane. ( even for the power brokers in Albany)

I still don't understand why you guys keep helping Tony figure out how best to make his arguments.

Agreed. I propose the standard response to anti-rail factions be: "There are already too many trails in the Adirondacks and we need to act aggressively to remove 50 percent of them since they waste taxpayer money."

No facts required.

Sorry folks. Broke my own rule again and responded to his lunacy. I'm just tired of the flat out lies. Time for a new record ARTA, the one you have been using is broken.

lvrr325 wrote:I still don't understand why you guys keep helping Tony figure out how best to make his arguments.

Like 'Geek says, it's hard to sit and read unmitigated BS without responding.

Aside from Scott's road to Beaver River, I'm still convinced the ultimate goal is to get everyone out of "their" forest.

New York State would be NUTS to allow snowmobiles to fly down a narrow straightaway that was a former railbed:

"The modern snowmobile can weigh in excess of 600 pounds and travel at speeds exceeding 90 miles per hour. Each year, snowmobile accidents produce 200 deaths and 40,000 injuries in the United States. Excess speed, alcohol, driver inexperience, and poor judgment are the leading causes of accidents." -- National Institute for Health. Here is the link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12671482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once you deduct the added medical costs from all the tragic accidents that would occur along the "snowmobile trail" I have no doubt the snowmobile trail conversion would be a disaster. A long, fast trail, with steep embankments on the side, with a jug of beer and a snowmobile, that's a wild time far away from help, that's a real smart idea...

ccutler wrote:New York State would be NUTS to allow snowmobiles to fly down a narrow straightaway that was a former railbed:

"The modern snowmobile can weigh in excess of 600 pounds and travel at speeds exceeding 90 miles per hour. Each year, snowmobile accidents produce 200 deaths and 40,000 injuries in the United States. Excess speed, alcohol, driver inexperience, and poor judgment are the leading causes of accidents." -- National Institute for Health. Here is the link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12671482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once you deduct the added medical costs from all the tragic accidents that would occur along the "snowmobile trail" I have no doubt the snowmobile trail conversion would be a disaster. A long, fast trail, with steep embankments on the side, with a jug of beer and a snowmobile, that's a wild time far away from help, that's a real smart idea...

PREACH!

This link contains "New York State Snowmobile Association's" commercial that encourages families to
come have "safe family fun" while snowmobiling.

Sounds great, right? Too bad the folks in the video that are actually practicing safe snowmobile operation
rarely every happens, and likely would never happen on this ROW.

Now THIS VIDEO, this shows reality. Notice at the 2:00 minute mark, the first sled knocks over an empty trash can
after crossing the major highway. Does anyone pick it up? OF COURSE THEY DON'T PICK IT UP. But the guys sure laugh
about it!

Classy bunch, these snowmobilers!

Charlie

Matt;

The 2008 DOT estimate for capital needs for the ASR totals $45.7 million. $!.2 million is for a new shop and $800,000 is for new dome cars. I thus stand by the figure of $43.7 million for "track reconstruction", "safety", and "track and bridge" - all line items clearly necessary for an expanded railroad. The Stone Consulting study did say that $15 million would restore Class II tracks (30 mph), but also said that would attract only 7,000 new riders each year, or about 30/day during the proposed seven month operating season. Can a railroad survive on 30 riders per day and should the state spend $15 million to accommodate such an operation?

Salvage contractors contacted to date and the experience of other recent rail to trail conversions provide confidence that $3-5 Million will be realized from the scrap value of the rails. If we do incur the $2 million cost of disposing of 80 miles of ties, that will still leave a positive balance to begin trail construction. I have not heard of any plan to store the rails. The first phase of trail construction will create a firm, stone dust surface from Lake Placid to Tupper Lake. With the rails removed, snowmobilers will benefit from the ability to also link the southern and northern systems of snowmobile trails over a longer season that at present. Ask businesses in Tupper, Lake Clear, Saranac and Lake Placid how much additional business they have enjoyed these past two weekend when the corridor has finally become rideable. As a recreational pursuit, snowmobiling is not without its problems, but the corridor has hosted snowmobiles since the abandonment in 1972 and with grooming since 1996. I'm not aware of any serious accidents on the corridor, although there certainly have been those elsewhere.

The 20,000 that may have ridden the Adirondack Railway Corporation operation in 1980 included those who rode during the Olympics. Whenever a business fails it is usually ascribed to poor management, but in this case I believe it was just a poor plan that no operator could have succeeded at. Do you have any specifics of how major amounts of money were spent inappropriately? There really wasn't much money to begin with.

As for where this trail will start, ARTA continues to say Thendara since ASR's most popular operations are south of there. If the revised Unit Management Plan ultimately dictates otherwise, we'll deal with it.

tree68 wrote:

lvrr325 wrote:I still don't understand why you guys keep helping Tony figure out how best to make his arguments.

Like 'Geek says, it's hard to sit and read unmitigated BS without responding.

Aside from Scott's road to Beaver River, I'm still convinced the ultimate goal is to get everyone out of "their" forest.

Agreed. If we allow Tony's lies to go unanswered, that would allow him to say we have no response to his arguments. Everyone who supports ADIX needs to stand tall right now. Firing back at Tony's lies allows us to hone our arguments. We can't let a small group of rich people push the RR around.

Tony Goodwin wrote:Snowmobile business interests in White Lake have gone on line to advocate for removal of the tracks back to Remsen to increase their snowmobiling season

Increase their season? OMG Tony, there are snowmobile trails in the Adirondacks already!. How much is enough for you and your special interests? As has been stated before, removing the rails would only extend the season a few weeks on the ROW. I know snowmobilers who are able to ride in the Adirondacks now. Adding more trails won't increase business, IMO.

Tony Goodwin wrote: The 20,000 that may have ridden the Adirondack Railway Corporation operation in 1980 included those who rode during the Olympics. Whenever a business fails it is usually ascribed to poor management, but in this case I believe it was just a poor plan that no operator could have succeeded at. Do you have any specifics of how major amounts of money were spent inappropriately? There really wasn't much money to begin with.

Nearly 12,000 people rode the Adirondack during the summer of 1980. Those numbers are on file with the state.

Everyone (including DOT employees and former employees of the Adirondack Railroad) that I've talked to has indicated that there were a number of improprieties, financially speaking, having to do with that operation. A state auditor, trying to piece things together following the shutdown in August of 1980, reported found sheaves of vouchers that had been paid by the state but for which nothing other than the voucher could be found. I understand the RR operator ran a tie plant as a separate business, then sold the ties to the railroad, no doubt at a handsome profit. Never mind that there are NYC ties under the rails in better shape today than the infamous "green" ties.

As for the snowmobilers - all one has to do is look at the todo about the "Snirt" run on Tug Hill to understand that they would love see a lot of roads closed so they could ride on them, too. I was in Thendara in January and it was obvious that the sledders were having no problem getting from White Lake to Old Forge, even if the tracks weren't rideable. I was in Otter Lake in February, and the sledders were flying by on the tracks.

So, how was the riding along the line in 1991?

The 2008 DOT estimate for capital needs for the ASR totals $45.7 million. $!.2 million is for a new shop and $800,000 is for new dome cars.

Who the hell is talking about dome cars and a new shop??? We are talking about TRACK restoration. Dome cars would be nice and so would a new shop, but NO ONE is asking NYS to buy them. This is why there is a designated operator. The Adirondack Scenic is responsible for the equipment and they have been looking at building a shop that will cost less then that estimate. Until that time they can continue to use the small shop in Thendara.

The Stone Consulting study did say that $15 million would restore Class II tracks (30 mph), but also said that would attract only 7,000 new riders each year, or about 30/day during the proposed seven month operating season. Can a railroad survive on 30 riders per day and should the state spend $15 million to accommodate such an operation?

The key word being NEW. That doesn't mean total. These numbers are also, by Stone Consulting's admission, very conservative. How many NEW snowmobilers will use the trail per year. I bet a lot less.

$15 million to accommodate such an operation

Does this mean you agree with this figure? If it does, it makes you a liar for continuing to tell the public $43 million.

should the state spend $15 million to accommodate such an operation

Who says the state should spend $15 million to build your trail? Being that the state has already invested in this corridor as a RAILROAD, and the Adirondack Scenic has the proven business model, revenue stream, and track record to operate a railroad, I say finish the job and let it succeed. I know as a business owner, I would always rather continue to invest in an un-finished project to see it to completion rather than cut bait and watch monies wasted, especially a project that promises to have a return on investment vs. one that will not. How much are tolls gonna be on your trail? This $15 million doesn't even need to be spent in one lump sum. The project can be completed in sections and spread out over five or so years. Abandoning a project is only necessary when failure is achieved, and this project has been far from a failure no matter how many times ARTA tries to convince people it has.

Salvage contractors contacted to date and the experience of other recent rail to trail conversions provide confidence that $3-5 Million will be realized from the scrap value of the rails. If we do incur the $2 million cost of disposing of 80 miles of ties, that will still leave a positive balance to begin trail construction.

The low end of that is close to the real numbers I calculated. The high end is just wishful thinking. You do realize that these contractors expect to get paid right? Fuel is expensive. Moving equipment is expensive. Employees expect to get a pay check. Where is that total number? I bet it's close to $1 million to remove 80 miles of railroad through the wilderness with very few road access points. After the tie disposal that you now admit to, where is the money to build the trail? This is still assuming that you get to salvage the rails and use it toward the trail build out. It sounds more to me like "scrap the rails and build a trail between Saranac and Lake Placid and let the rest go un-finished leaving it only useable by snowmobilers".

The first phase of trail construction will create a firm, stone dust surface from Lake Placid to Tupper Lake.

Stone dust as a trail surface sucks for anything other then walking. I have biked the Erie Canal trail from Amsterdam to Fultonville which is 80% stone dust. It is not that enjoyable. Once again, How many of your supporters still think you are going to pave it?

With the rails removed, snowmobilers will benefit from the ability to also link the southern and northern systems of snowmobile trails over a longer season that at present. Ask businesses in Tupper, Lake Clear, Saranac and Lake Placid how much additional business they have enjoyed these past two weekend when the corridor has finally become rideable.

So removing the rails will make it snow more? I own and ride a snowmobile and I can tell you that the last five winters have been greatly unpredictable for sledding. Three of my riding buddies have even sold their machines due to the unpredictability. Big snow, then big thaw, then no snow, then more thaw, then light snow. I sure as hell wouldn't want my business to be dependent on a customer base that is completely reliant on weather. The train runs through all weather (including black fly season) and can even have ridership spikes during poor weather days when people can't hike or be outdoors. How popular will your trail be on a rainy weekend? Modern snowmobiles don't last very long riding over dirt and mud. They need a constant spray of snow passing over their intercoolers off the track in order to cool the engine.

At some point ARTA has wrongfully turned this into a train vs. snowmobile debate. Both can continue to co-exist.

I can keep going on and on, like I have been seemingly doing for the last two years, but I will end with this. This railroad is NYSDOT infrastructure. Removing infrastructure in this day and age is incredibly short sighted. With only one North-South road running through the park (Rt 30) the railroad offers an alternative that is not only transportation, but also entertainment. The trail can only do one of these things, and only to a limited market base of physically able or well to do enough to be able to afford a snowmobile. I think it is time for ARTA to start to work towards an actual compromise that doesn't see any rail removed, but instead develop adjacent and connecting trails, some already existing, into a functional network that can be enhanced by restored rail service and benefit the snowmobile community through new and interesting routes. Have you even tried? The railroad is willing to open discussion provided the line stays intact. Why won't ARTA consider it? You are instead hell bent on tearing out the tracks and won't consider anything else. Oh yeah. That's right. Because it's not actually about the trail.

traingeek8223 wrote:...This railroad is NYSDOT infrastructure. Removing infrastructure in this day and age is incredibly short sighted.

Valuable infrastructure!

I think it is time for ARTA to start to work towards an actual compromise that doesn't see any rail removed, but instead develop adjacent and connecting trails, some already existing, into a functional network that can be enhanced by restored rail service and benefit the snowmobile community through new and interesting routes. Have you even tried? The railroad is willing to open discussion provided the line stays intact. Why won't ARTA consider it?...

That's a great idea! You folks in the area should form an alternative non-arta group to work out a plan for rail with trail (or rail with nearby trail). What a win that would be

Tony, you need to deduct the value of lost lives and injuries from snowmobilers cruising on an open railbed at 60mph with no cops around and no guardrails. What's a life worth to you? $1MM? $10MM? Or someone who becomes a paraplegic from his snowmobile flipping out in the middle of nowhere? I think it is unsafe to have snowmobile trails that are wide-open straightaways with unprotected embankments on the sides. But maybe you just don't care about safety. Or kids' safety. If you did you should add at least $1MM/year for police patrol costs.