Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2014

Tony Goodwin wrote: The presence of the rails north of Thendara, however, has severely hurt the winter economies of Tupper Lake, Lake Clear, Saranac Lake, and to a lesser degree Lake Placid.

This is a gross exaggeration of the worst sort. Does anyone honestly believe that gobs of money will just rain down on the corridor after the trains are gone? The Adirondacks already 1800 miles of trails. Adding 100 miles or so to the trail network will make little, if any, difference.

Tony Goodwin wrote:I would like to think of my posts as a continuation of that engagement that might, just might, lead to a better understanding of the realities of rail operations versus recreational use of the corridor.

I think you're hoping the fiscal hawks will join forces with you. However, they have remained mute on this subject... so your arguments have been for nothing.

I just read the so called article, submitted by lemme guess hmm, Jim McCually....why is that name familiar? ohhh, hes your buddy , thats right, no wonder you posted that....I not only read that one but quite a few others from the link you posted, even a Scott Thompson posted an article, wow....all the players on one newpaper editorial column , amazing....

the facts you quoted are cherry picked....

quoted from the article

"In short:

1. ARPS has not been a universally well-run operation.

2. Revenue from ticket sales is insufficient to maintain its track and equipment.

3. ARPS is thus dependent on government subsidies.

4. Even with those subsidies, its financial situation is such that its own accountants question ARPS' ability to continue operations.

end quote

revenue from ticket sales insufficient to maintain track should have never been posted, their revenue is not needed to maintain the track, that belongs to the state, why is that even in there?

and the numbers posted are chicken feed compared to what the state loses on an annual basis, so maybe you are saying that state is poorly run also?

and who left you guys to decide that they are poorly run? have you ever volunteered or helped them run any excursions? from my experience with them they are very well run, very very helpful to their riders, and the safety is very good also....there are many places in this united states that could learn from them in the way they operate.....

all I see you do here is spread disinformation and derision, and you say our minds are made up? have you even considered letting it get re-built to placid and then if it cant pay for itself , them maybe take out the rails and have your way with it....that is baring any sabotage, or "vandalism" that no one sees or witnesses...

the bicycle riders really don't want the trail, its too flat and boring, if its not paved, then it will be for the road bicyclists, and they might like it, but how much to pave the 90 miles? probably more that to fix the rails...

only the most hard-core hikers will use the entire route, 90 miles is not a Sunday afternoon hike for the family .....

so you only have the snowmobilers and the atvers, and who will win that battle? when you guys are working in the spring summer and fall to pay for those nice sleds, the atvers will be out there making lots of new ruts for you guys to ride over in the winter.....are you going to write letters to the editors of various newspapers then to keep the atv's of the trail?

really , sometimes you guys are your own worst enemy, if the rails get ripped out you might have a trail until people start getting hurt riding that 90 miles top speed on their arctic cat turbos, apex turbos and ski-doo 1200 turbos, but if the accident rate climbs up there, I have a feeling the trail will be closed, but you wont listen to that, because I doubt you even observe speed limits in the mountains....

I love sledding, but I have 10,000 miles in the state to ride, its not just a hill thing or an old forge thing, its a sled thing, and there are many, many more places to ride than there....

in closing, maybe you should un harden your mind a little bit, and see what good will come from the rails....let it get re-built, then if it fails, what can we say....its really not that much money in the grand scheme of things at all...the only reason saranac to placid is hurting is cause the rest of the rail isnt there....

Every time you refute his points you help him hone his argument.


Why do you people keep helping the enemy?

May I suggest the following response to be repeated any time it is appropriate:

- There are too many trails in the Adirondacks already.
- If the railroad is torn up, the ROW reverts to 'forever wild' and no one will be allowed to use it.
- Even so, this will not stop ATVs from destroying it. I give that one season.

Consider the above to be "junk food for trolls".

umtrr-author wrote:May I suggest the following response to be repeated any time it is appropriate:

- There are too many trails in the Adirondacks already.
- If the railroad is torn up, the ROW reverts to 'forever wild' and no one will be allowed to use it.
- Even so, this will not stop ATVs from destroying it. I give that one season.

Consider the above to be "junk food for trolls".

Note highlighted line. I believe this to be the true goal of the "trail advocates." But they have to get the railroad out of the way first...

umtrr-author wrote:May I suggest the following response to be repeated any time it is appropriate:

- There are too many trails in the Adirondacks already.
- If the railroad is torn up, the ROW reverts to 'forever wild' and no one will be allowed to use it.
- Even so, this will not stop ATVs from destroying it. I give that one season.

Consider the above to be "junk food for trolls".

Note highlighted line. I believe this to be the true goal of the "trail advocates." But they have to get the railroad out of the way first...
Tree

But here is the true issue. SOME of the people at ARTA have this as a goal while others actually want a trail, a select few (at least one loud-mouth with particularly few manners, you know who I'm talking about) want a snowmobile super highway, and another one still wants a road to his business. They are currently united under "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and the common goal of destroying the railroad. You think the debate is nasty now, just wait till the tracks are torn up and these idiots start fighting amongst each other over what to do with it(there is precedence for this as they have done it before). Take note NYS Taxpayers. These people are not your friends.

lvrr325 wrote:Every time you refute his points you help him hone his argument.


Why do you people keep helping the enemy?

I believe the converse to be true. If we DON'T respond, then Tony can say railfans don't care about ADIX.

Where would I find the source financial document that is quoted in the link? That would be more interesting and relevant than Tony's friend's interpretetation of it.

The financial information for 2012 is the latest that has been filed. The link below will take you to the page on the CharitiesNYS.com web site where this 65 page document can be found. The comment about the increase in liabilities and decrease in assets is found on page 51. Following that statement are further statements about ways in which operations have improved, but there is still the caveat that success depends on management following the plan.

One suggestion is that the organization must cut expenses. So, would not operating in Lake Placid perhaps be a good way to reduce expenses? That operation must have lost a lot of revenue last summer due to the number of times (other than the claimed sabotage) when the engine was down.

To some, the criticisms on the final two pages might seem serious. To be fair, however, having worked for other small not for profits, such problems are common and do not necessarily indicate financial malfeasance.

http://www.charitiesnys.com/RegistrySea ... 618D22C45}

One suggestion is that the organization must cut expenses. So, would not operating in Lake Placid perhaps be a good way to reduce expenses? That operation must have lost a lot of revenue last summer due to the number of times (other than the claimed sabotage) when the engine was down.

Blaa, blaa, blaa. I honestly don't know how you keep from getting dizzy with all the spinning you guys do. I for one have gotten quite nauseated from it. Your arguments might carry a little more weight if you guys didn't carry on like children on Facebook and continue to talk to us like we are foaming idiots that "don't deserve to play with our trains anymore". Granted your arguments still wouldn't make sense since they are based in fantasy-land, but at least they would be more respectable. Maybe we should start looking into ARTAs financials and start tearing them apart, since the group you continue to try to destroy and discredit, the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, maintains it's position on the high road in this matter.

Here is the corresponding link for ARTA:

http://www.charitiesnys.com/RegistrySea ... ls.jsp?id=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;{FD7E727E-1367-4983-8F7C-6EA1FF590EFD}

There is no equivalent filing, as yet. Perhaps because they were incorporated in 2012?

We will be waiting with bated breath.

financial information, lemme see, and I hope this article hasnt been posted before...

http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/ ... -it-happen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I found this interesting in this article...

Financially speaking, I think we’re in a much better place than we have been in past years," she said.

"That’s not to say that we don’t have struggles. But we’ve eliminated all of our long-term debt, we’ve paid down our payable list considerably.”

The Scenic Railroad has scored some big wins in recent years – paying down roughly 400 thousand dollars in debts, including some that were roughly a decade old.

They also acquired two refurbished locomotives, and expanded the railroad from Old Forge to Big Moose Lake, while growing the number of ticket sales to nearly a million dollars in annual revenue.

“It’s self-sufficient on ticket funds, memberships and donations that we have coming in," she said.


so maybe they arent doing that bad at all .....seems like they are growing more than I thought!!


I also read some interesting comments, many are against the ARTA , but there where some good ones, also...one was talking about economic viability....saying that because there are already so many snowmobile and Hiking, trails there, the commenter was wondering how many more would come to use and create revenue for this trail, seeing how they can use this section and many others already....the answer , not many more...they are already there ...

and as for the comments of "Feeding the trolls" ....this fall I witnessed the NYSSA posting on there website, and most club pages around here supporting the rail rip out and trail expansion...lots of free press...how many telling the ADRR side of thing? not many, there is a difference in feeding trolls and refuting trolls that post inaccurate information...there are some that believe that a lie repeated over and over becomes truth...

the one thing I found interesting was that the state is only allowing a 30 lease , revokable at any time on the corridor....how can anyone bring in any investment , charitable or otherwise with that type of condition?...seems the state is stepping on feet again...Maybe we should get a petition going for an extended lease like a 10 year window?

Joe S: ARTA's 2012 filing is available on the CharitiesNYS.com web site. Take another look.

A very good commentary refuting the "spin" ARTA has put on ARPS's tax document:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... l?nav=5041

The recent Guest Commentary critical of the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society and its finances was a deliberate attempt by Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates and writer Jim McCulley to mislead the readers with out-of-context and outdated facts gleaned from its Freedom of Information Law request access to ARPS' 2012 not-for-profit tax return and its accompanying 2011-12 management report, as rendered by an outside accounting firm.

Found it, Tony. Thanks.

For those who did not review the 2012 ARTA return it reads something like this:

Started with $50,493.60
Ended with $5080.37

Spent $27,600 on a study of "abandoned rail corridor between Old Forge and Lake Placid by the Rails to Trails Conservancy..." including printing costs;

Spent $6200 for educational materials and mailing for the public encouraging them to support rail trail;

Spent $6100 for summer help to distribute said materials.

I did not see an accounting for about $5513, idly wondering what happened to it. Page 4 and pages 6-10 are missing from the on-line scanned form.

Quite an outlay of cash by folks quite eager to see the rails gone.

I fear that if the railfan community does not meet this challenge head on they will triumph.