Acela II (Alstom Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

THEN. BUILD. A. MOCK. UP.

Dude pull your head out of your behind. This was always the second option. I've said it every time.

Here is one:

Tadman wrote: you can always build a mockup (this has been done many times)

These are also facts. You are also not entitled to your own facts in this case (or any others). Ergo this is a closed matter as well.

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:53 am

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2024 10:25 pm Brightline is Siemens, but everyone on this board claims that they are full of issues too and that it’s an Amtrak problem.

It's either an Amtrak problem, a cold weather problem, or an operational-related issue. Somehow we don't hear of many problems in Florida with these.

But at Brightline you probably have maintenance that is very by-the-book, while Amtrak does whatever they want.

As someone who has listened in on meetings and read a number of reports describing technical issues on the ALC-42 this is 100% completely incorrect. You are simply wrong. You are just repeating the internet armchair railfan narrative and living in Amtrak derangement land. There have been dozens of field modification orders to correct design issues and try to improve reliability with the units both with the software and hardware and the problems have largely been design related and not the fault of Amtrak mechanical forces. With the state units which the states do not have technical services for the biggest issue has been getting the parts that fail often quickly enough from Siemens to keep the units on the road. Amtrak has planned the first overhaul for the SC44s and it includes some changes to resolve some of the issues one of which is changing out the noses to the same as what's on the Amtrak owned units which fare better in vehicle strikes - but so far the Midwest states have only been able to put one unit through overhaul. IDOT who is the lead agency for the midwest state group has not been able to find sufficient funding to put all the units through the program. They have had a couple unsuccessful grant attempts through CRISI and the Fed State partnership.

With the ALC 42s Amtrak has a technical services and spare parts supply agreement where the vendor has a much larger involvement in maintaining the equipment than in traditional equipment. They also have penalties when the units have service disruptions so Siemens has a little bit more of an incentive with the Amtrak units than the state units. VIA likewise has a similar arrangement. VIA has likewise had a number of issues with their engines since they began running the new transets. The Brightline units are vendor maintained on a daily basis and are never far away from their shop. Comparing them with long haul Amtrak units is comparing apples to oranges.

Amtrak, by the way, has a similar agreement with Alstom who will be involved in supporting the new trainsets.

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:20 pm THEN. BUILD. A. MOCK. UP.

Dude pull your head out of your behind. This was always the second option. I've said it every time.

Here is one:

Tadman wrote: you can always build a mockup (this has been done many times)

These are also facts. You are also not entitled to your own facts in this case (or any others). Ergo this is a closed matter as well.

We have the technology to make pretty reliable 3d modeling of aircraft, for this kinda thing. I'm surprised that Alstom didn't do so with avelia.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:56 pm
As someone who has listened in on meetings and read a number of reports describing technical issues on the ALC-42 this is 100% completely incorrect. You are simply wrong. You are just repeating the internet armchair railfan narrative and living in Amtrak derangement land. There have been dozens of field modification orders to correct design issues and try to improve reliability with the units both with the software and hardware and the problems have largely been design related and not the fault of Amtrak mechanical forces.

Or... I have looked at the empirical evidence and seen that Brightline has not had these problems while Amtrak has. It will be telling when Via has their first year under their belt.

As for the Amtrak derangement comments, I used to have status on Amtrak. I see how they're doing things. It's not a well run ship to say the least. As I've explained in the other threads, I work in the capital equipment industry. We build it, we fix it, we test it, we rebuild it. I co-author design standards. I can spot inept or underfunded maintenance from 100 miles away.

I'd like to see some of the Amtrak apologists lay their credentials on the table. Do you work there? Do you railroad? Do you work in heavy equipment, customer service, or common carrier jobs? Because if you don't its very ironic when you call me an internet armchair railfan.

As lordsigma noted, Brightline doesn't have the same issues Amtrak does because it's comparing apples to oranges. Their trains never run far from a maintenance base, never leave MIA - MCO corridor, and run in pretty consistent weather and temperature conditions over little no elevation, with half the line on brand new dedicated high speed ROW. They've also got Siemens doing repairs under a PM contract in one of the newest repair facilities in the country that was built specifically for their equipment. I guarantee if their trainsets started running across state lines, time zones, mountain ranges, through extreme climates, and spending prolonged periods away from dedicated shops, you'd start seeing the issues Amtrak is having pop up in the Brightline equipment too.

That's not to say that the issues the Avelia release is seeing is acceptable, but it is hardly fair to compare an essentially isolated privately-run railroad with one equipment type with a national quasi-government run carrier that fields a variety of equipment across an entire country (and into another). You don't have to be an industry expert or insider to see and understand how things work. I've seen plenty of industry experts that also don't know their head from rear end (which is how we get into situations like the Avelia having issues). Every new piece of equipment developed is going to have the potential for defect, design issues and errors, and oversight (or lack of). It is not something that is unique to Amtrak and is hardly their fault.

And for the record, I work customer service and warranty in the heavy equipment field.

I attended a meeting last year where they went into the technical issues with the Charger units in detail and to the various fixes that Siemens was working on. Regardless of your perception of whether Amtrak is a well run outfit or not and maybe sometimes and in some ways Amtrak isn’t - but those are facts. For example the cold weather stuff from two years ago that was a design flaw where the transformer was getting insufficient heat in very very cold temperature situations and causing the unit to shut down. There was an initial software fix and later they added a pipe to deliver heat from the engine to the system in very cold conditions. Newly built units are coming with the fix from the factory. That’s hardly an Amtrak maintenance failure. The VIA units as well as the hybrid units being built for the Airo trainsets are benefitting from a long list of field modifications that have come out of the ALC 42 program.

You don’t need to wait a year. VIA is already having issues that Siemens is looking into.

I call you an internet armchair railfan because the stuff you are saying about the Chargers is the stuff that is constantly said on Train Orders, Facebook groups, and other places and is largely not accurate: that all the issues are cold weather, bad maintenance, etc. I can tell you are speculating based on your opinion that Amtrak sucks.

You don’t have to work for a railroad or maintain heavy equipment to understand the information that’s right in front of you. I work in a technical field and am not an idiot.

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 21, 2024 6:16 pm

lensovet wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:54 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 11:47 am If these are off the shelf, can they not run a test on a borrowed set that someone else owns?

Sorry, what planet are you on? What other operator in the world operates any set that is remotely identical to this one?

I'm here on Earth, home of both USA and France, where the Avelia Horizon is a product family made by Alstom.

lensovet wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2024 10:54 pm And who is the "they" that is supposedly running these tests?

Seller
Buyer
Regulatory Body as a witness
maybe some consulting engineers to represent all three parties

These are the stakeholders. It's not that hard to figure out. When I sell stuff to Amtrak they usually have requirements to meet for codes and regs, and proof test requirements.

Don't aplogize for the suck. Hold them responsible and maybe you'll get better trains.

Wait, you insisted you couldn’t imagine Boeing finding themselves in this position and then some one who worked in the field said actually he was involved in exactly this kind of test that Boeing failed, and instead of apologizing for your insulting assumption, you still come out guns blazing?

scratchyX1 wrote: We have the technology to make pretty reliable 3d modeling of aircraft, for this kinda thing. I'm surprised that Alstom didn't do so with avelia.

Catia can tell you a lot, but it's limited to spacial integration. You can model all you want, but there are limitations to CAD/CAM and other mathematical models. The old phrase there are known known's, and there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns comes into play with mathematical models. Or the competing problem which is how you take measurements can effect outcomes which is a real bear in fluid simulations and finite element methods.

Back to the doors I think we need to take a step back and look at the facts, of which there are none publicly available. We don't know if its a window issue, it could also be a change in requirements compliance problem. I have worked on projects where requirements changed midway though and we had teams get blame for failure to meet deadlines because the additional time to meet compliance was not factored into the schedule. Should we have gotten blame even if it was spurious that's not for me to say. I would like at least at a minimum a statement from Amtrak, Alstom, hell the House Transportation and Infrastructural committee or someone as to what the hell is taking so long, I think at this stage we've blown though the worst case delay scenario laid out in the OIG report from last year.

Brightline has just one equipment builder. The techs do not have to work on the variety of equipment that Amtrak runs. As well are the Amtrak maintenance personnel also responsible for other equipment? Such a wire trains?

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:20 pm THEN. BUILD. A. MOCK. UP.

Dude pull your head out of your behind. This was always the second option. I've said it every time.

These are also facts. You are also not entitled to your own facts in this case (or any others). Ergo this is a closed matter as well.

Speaking of guns blazing, can you pick a line and stick to it?

First you keep spouting how there are off the shelf units, that Avelia is not custom build and that there are plenty of other units they could use, then when you're presented with information that you're wrong, you turn around and resort to personal attacks? Seriously?

Never mind that building a mockup accomplishes diddly squat as far as ensuring that the train set that actually gets tested works, in addition to the fact that we still have no goddamn clue about what actually failed.

Give it a rest already. How many people do you need to hear this from to let it go?

lensovet wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:34 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:20 pm THEN. BUILD. A. MOCK. UP.

Dude pull your head out of your behind. This was always the second option. I've said it every time.

These are also facts. You are also not entitled to your own facts in this case (or any others). Ergo this is a closed matter as well.

Speaking of guns blazing, can you pick a line and stick to it?

Let me quote you my exact first first two sentences on this issue:

If these are off the shelf, can they not run a test on a borrowed set that someone else owns? If these are modified enough to be materially different, can they build a mockup of a test car and do some testing in advance?

Post # 1655845

I stand by my exact words. Run a test or if not possible build a mockup. You can't change my words because again that's you trying to have your own facts. Give it a rest.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 2:39 pm
But all that said, the *only* place I can find where there is a claim that the Acela IIs are still failing type approval testing is this forum. A separate Reddit suggests that type approval testing is complete, crews are being trained, and acceptance testing on individual trainsets is now underway, but that some trainsets are performing better than others.

Well I can tell you that as of today according to what’s in my timetable and published in the bulletin, none of the sets are allowed to make non testing moves above D speeds 90 MPH. I’ll even go a step further and tell you that most T&E crews on the upper end of the corridor have 0 training on the new sets.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 2:39 pm You can't use mock ups for tests--you can only use the real thing. You can have tests in mock ups indicate that the real thing should pass and still have the real thing fail its tests.

I understand this and this is something we do in testing that is commonly referred to as "dry runs" or such. It's good practice to run many of them with different test groups and perhaps different scenarios. And of course you can still fail the real test when the FRA brass pulls up and watches the real train being tested. But it's a lot less likely.

This whole situation reminds me of the Sumitomo midwest bilevels. One crush test failed and they get out of town in the middle of the night. Like they didn't computer model this or do a couple dry runs on some pre-production shells before Amtrak and the FRA came in to watch??? No way. Something is up.

I asked an Amtrak employee about the Acela II's failing emergency exit testing. Yes, they are failing. That is a fact.

Amtrak's still pushing to get two sets in service by March.

But there's another issue, and this one can't be fixed: The design of the cars requires implementation of a new baggage policy of 1 medium suitcase, 1 carry on, and anything else beyond that is extra charge.

Welp, I can't take the Acela 2 for any conventions to Boston now! It's going to be the Regional.