Acela II (Alstom Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

lensovet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:02 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:54 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:00 pm Seems to me the common denominator,in all these European "failures", is Amtrak.

Yes. Somehow they keep having these problems and their suppliers are well known around the globe for being reasonably reliable. Another reason why it is time to find a different model.

Yeah, every other operator in North America has never had any issues with equipment they've ordered in the last three decades.

At some point we should probably talk about the topic of this thread, Avelia delivery and acceptance.

As for why we're talking about non-Amtrak, my point above was that the issues Amtrak is seeing have mostly to do with it being in the US and little to do with Amtrak itself.

Tadman wrote: The record would show that no operator in North America has had half the trouble Amtrak has had.

AEM-7 and the F-40 worked. But the 7 was based on a long proven RC series locomotive, the F-40 was just a long proven EMD with a HEP alternator strapped onto it. The E-60s, Pooches, and SDP40F, were disasters.

If you can describe to us any US or Canadian operator that has had one procurement program that has had troubles of the magnitude of the following, we'll have a good discussion: Metroliner EMU; SDP40f; E60CP; Turbo III rebuild; Acela I; HHP; Acela II; CAF Sleepers.

Can’t think of any. Even the “disaster” SLV on SEPTA seems to be running fine, after they fixed the issues with their obsolete trucks.

So far the best I can think of is the MP36, which had minor EIS issues but has been running strong for 20+ years now, and the DE/DM30 which had some pretty serious issues early on but we haven't heard much in the last 5-10 years. The F125 is disliked(?) by Metrolink but I don't know in what quality this dislike occurs.

The DE/DM fleet might actually be edging out the P-32s now.

Caltrain? Metra? VRE? Metro North? NJT? MBTA? Via? Go? MUCTC? Not sure of any FRA-qualified rolling stock they have that has been all that disastrous.

Other than the M-7s being barges, they did well after they got their initial truck issues sorted. NJT’s “problems” seem to stem from computers doing their job of preventing abuse, more than anything else.

Oddly, MARC got an HHP or two to run reliably.

When you get dumped by one girlfriend, she might be the problem. When you get dumped by multiple girlfriends, you’re probably the problem.

Nasadowsk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:44 pm

When you get dumped by one girlfriend, she might be the problem. When you get dumped by multiple girlfriends, you’re probably the problem.

Good to see you back, brother. Your common sense is appreciated.

Nasadowsk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:44 pm AEM-7 and the F-40 worked. But the 7 was based on a long proven RC series locomotive, the F-40 was just a long proven EMD with a HEP alternator strapped onto it. The E-60s, Pooches, and SDP40F, were disasters.

And the SC-44 and ALC-42 engines are based off of the Vectron series.

So far the best I can think of is the MP36, which had minor EIS issues but has been running strong for 20+ years now, and the DE/DM30 which had some pretty serious issues early on but we haven't heard much in the last 5-10 years. The F125 is disliked(?) by Metrolink but I don't know in what quality this dislike occurs.

Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered. I can't wait until more SC-44's replace them.

Oddly, MARC got an HHP or two to run reliably.

The issue with the HHP-8 was how badly the cooling system was built. Word is that one guy actually spent some time to replumb the cooling and it's been reliable ever since. Sadly, only MARC runs HHP-8's now.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:34 pm

Nasadowsk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:44 pm AEM-7 and the F-40 worked. But the 7 was based on a long proven RC series locomotive, the F-40 was just a long proven EMD with a HEP alternator strapped onto it. The E-60s, Pooches, and SDP40F, were disasters.

And the SC-44 and ALC-42 engines are based off of the Vectron series.

So far the best I can think of is the MP36, which had minor EIS issues but has been running strong for 20+ years now, and the DE/DM30 which had some pretty serious issues early on but we haven't heard much in the last 5-10 years. The F125 is disliked(?) by Metrolink but I don't know in what quality this dislike occurs.

Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered. I can't wait until more SC-44's replace them.

Oddly, MARC got an HHP or two to run reliably.

The issue with the HHP-8 was how badly the cooling system was built. Word is that one guy actually spent some time to replumb the cooling and it's been reliable ever since. Sadly, only MARC runs HHP-8's now.

It was a hardware issue?
I thought it was software?
What were the hippos based on?

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:34 pm
Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered.

But MPI actually did have at one time a version that was the most powerful locomotive available in North America at 5400 hp:

https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/MPI_MP54AC

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:34 pm Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered. I can't wait until more SC-44's replace them.

Please explain how the 3600-hp MP36's were a drop in power over the 3000-hp GP40WH-2's. I'm curious. Did it have to do with the HEP?

jamoldover wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 12:56 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:34 pm Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered. I can't wait until more SC-44's replace them.

Please explain how the 3600-hp MP36's were a drop in power over the 3000-hp GP40WH-2's. I'm curious. Did it have to do with the HEP?

It may have to do with the gearing...? I checked Wikipedia and it claims that the GP40-2 has a top speed of 65mph while the MPI MP36 and its variants have top speeds ranging from 82mph to 102mph. Does anyone know the gearing of the GP40WH-2 and the MP36 variant that MARC is using? I know the SC-44s have a top speed of 125mph but they also have a much more modern traction control system so the lack of gearing advantage might not matter as much.

Can we bring this thread back to the topic of Avelia testing and delivery?

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:49 pm

jamoldover wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 12:56 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:34 pm Oh don't get me started on the MP36's. MARC ran them because they were cheap at the time, but it was a drop in power over the EMD GP40WH-2's they were running. Now, they have to run two engines on 8-9 car trains just to have enough power to keep a schedule. They may be working great but for the application it's underpowered. I can't wait until more SC-44's replace them.

Please explain how the 3600-hp MP36's were a drop in power over the 3000-hp GP40WH-2's. I'm curious. Did it have to do with the HEP?

It may have to do with the gearing...? I checked Wikipedia and it claims that the GP40-2 has a top speed of 65mph while the MPI MP36 and its variants have top speeds ranging from 82mph to 102mph. Does anyone know the gearing of the GP40WH-2 and the MP36 variant that MARC is using? I know the SC-44s have a top speed of 125mph but they also have a much more modern traction control system so the lack of gearing advantage might not matter as much.

Not to keep this topic off much longer, but gearing has nothing to do with the overall power. The MP36’s were not a drop in power over the WH2 and I’ve ran both in the past and can say that the WH2 only loaded faster because they were old and not limited as bad by computers!

lensovet wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 8:16 pm Can we bring this thread back to the topic of Avelia testing and delivery?

One of these days, I'm going to be out railfanning and I'm going to see the Avelia get towed into DC by a GP40WH-2.

Anyway, any word on their latest testing?

Has Amtrak finished all the modifications to BOS, SSY, PHL,& WASH for servicing the new AX-2s? Uf they are not finished then ho9w can regular service start? It is noted that the Airo facilities are not all even financed with completion stated as year 2029.

https://nec-commission.com/app/uploads/ ... Nov-23.pdf

You don't necessarily need full facilities at all 4 locations to start service.

That said, you can find the answers you're looking for in the NEC Commission annual report from the same website you linked. http://nec-commission.com/app/uploads/2 ... t-FY23.pdf

For example for Sunnyside:

The project team re-phased work to allow for the delivery of the Ready Track platforms and can be completed prior to the release of the New Acela Trainsets. The EOR developed the Sunnyside Yard HSR Facility Modifications needed for Mechanical’s acceptance and provided bid documents for FY24 construction for the mods.

So sounds like they specifically rearranged the project to do the work needed for maintenance to happen earlier so that it's not blocking entry into service. I leave research of the other facilities up to you. Note that FY23 ended on September 30 of last year, so the information is not going to be as up-to-date as you might like.

I'm hearing the voice of "Penn Central - 1970" in the back of my head, saying something like "only 10% of our maintenance facilities meet current standards. In many work is carried out outside in all weather"

Avelia Liberty was out the night of 7/29. I don't think I heard any radio contact. The Pihlly Buff was on top of this as usual.

Tonight at 11:04PM I heard the Morrisville extra (NJT) confused about why they were moving from track 3 to track 4; dispatcher replied "test train". My guess is that the Extra was at County and I do not know what test train it actually was. I haven't heard any test train make contact tonight. 11:40PM - KP2022 was told that it will be held at Ham. (The Charger test train has stolen the KP2022 identity a few times so it's not confirmed yet - I have not been doing camera watch either)