Acela II (Alstom Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

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David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:00 pm Seems to me the common denominator,in all these European "failures", is Amtrak.

Yes. Somehow they keep having these problems and their suppliers are well known around the globe for being reasonably reliable. Another reason why it is time to find a different model.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:54 am The issue here is that America has different standards than Europe does.

I once did a deep dive on these standards and as we all know, they have been around for a while. How long? Turns out it's something like 1940, when many RPO were carried in long mail or even freight trains. The post office came up with the standards in order to protect the mail from flying out of a flimsy car during minor to medium-level accidents and derailments back when written mail was the only way to communicate across the country.

If you want to know the secrets:

The static end strength requirement is based on longstanding practice, and originated in specifications for U.S. Railway Postal Office (RPO) cars [27, 28] in the 1940’s. Numbers of earlier RPO cars, which were built to lower static end strength requirements, were crushed in train collisions. These cars were placed in freight trains, often with many trailing freight cars, with postal workers on board sorting the mail to be left at the various train stops. During a collision substantial compressive loads would be applied to such cars. For cars not built to the 800 kip static end strength requirement, the results could be catastrophic, with structural collapse of the cars and many postal workers killed [27]. The introduction of cars that met the static end strength requirement effectively eliminated this type of complete structural collapse. In addition to the static end strength requirement, there are also federal regulations and industry standards for the strength of the end structure, the strength of the truck attachment, the strength of interior equipment attachment, the strength of exterior equipment attachment, and the strength of the anti-climber arrangement. These structural crashworthiness requirements all implicitly rely on the main structure strength prescribed by the static end strength requirement

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _standards

Keeping buffer standards developed from the days of RPO's.... that's such a US regulatory thing to do.

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:54 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:00 pm Seems to me the common denominator,in all these European "failures", is Amtrak.

Yes. Somehow they keep having these problems and their suppliers are well known around the globe for being reasonably reliable. Another reason why it is time to find a different model.

Yeah, every other operator in North America has never had any issues with equipment they've ordered in the last three decades.

"Test train" requested foul at 10:53PM track 2 County to Edison; don't know if this was Avelia Liberty

lensovet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:02 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:54 pm

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:00 pm Seems to me the common denominator,in all these European "failures", is Amtrak.

Yes. Somehow they keep having these problems and their suppliers are well known around the globe for being reasonably reliable. Another reason why it is time to find a different model.

Yeah, every other operator in North America has never had any issues with equipment they've ordered in the last three decades.

The record would show that no operator in North America has had half the trouble Amtrak has had. If you can describe to us any US or Canadian operator that has had one procurement program that has had troubles of the magnitude of the following, we'll have a good discussion: Metroliner EMU; SDP40f; E60CP; Turbo III rebuild; Acela I; HHP; Acela II; CAF Sleepers.

So far the best I can think of is the MP36, which had minor EIS issues but has been running strong for 20+ years now, and the DE/DM30 which had some pretty serious issues early on but we haven't heard much in the last 5-10 years. The F125 is disliked(?) by Metrolink but I don't know in what quality this dislike occurs.

Caltrain? Metra? VRE? Metro North? NJT? MBTA? Via? Go? MUCTC? Not sure of any FRA-qualified rolling stock they have that has been all that disastrous.

The only issue I can think of with the Metra MP36s was weight - they were too heavy to operate on the UP lines. But operationally? Rock solid.

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Um the Metroliner was ordered by PRR in 66, first deliveries in 67, service began in 69 under Penn Central. What on earth does Amtrak, which didn't come into existence until 2 years later, have to do with their issues?

And you can't be serious about other agencies. Comet Vs were a disaster, Silverliner V were a complete shitshow. Plenty of complaints about PL42 when that was new.

Caltrain bought a 30-year-old design. I sure hope it wouldn't have any issues by then. MN apparently had to replace all the armrests in their M7s? M8s had zero no-fault miles in testing 13 months after the first car was delivered.

If you guys hate Amtrak so much, why even spend time in this forum? It's like the people who show up in iPhone forums to bash them and say how much better Android is. Literally makes zero sense.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:04 am If you guys hate Amtrak so much, why even spend time in this forum? It's like the people who show up in iPhone forums to bash them and say how much better Android is. Literally makes zero sense.

Mr. Lensovet, you've been around here long enough to know this is not some kind of forum where any criticism of Amtrak affairs is regarded as blasphemous. In fact, you first signed up when I was "wearing the Tin Star" around here - and anyone here today knows that I'm "not exactly pro-Amtrak". My last Amtrak ride was #52(the day Kobe Bryant was killed), and I simply decided that it really didn't meet my transportation needs, as it saved me 400 miles of driving, one night in a hotel, gave me some mediocre meal (which I took in my room), and charged me a fare somewhere "up near the Space Station".

The next time I use Amtrak for anything will be when I'm out in the Corridor (flown or driven) and I have reason to go somewhere else within the Corridor.

But I'm still here, and so long as my eleven years' experience ('70-'81) in the railroad industry still gives me sharable knowledge to contribute, I'm here - even though by any measurement I'm no longer a railfan.

Do I still ride trains? yes, but they are overseas, METRA, and Brightline - and for the sole purpose to get from here to there.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:04 am If you guys hate Amtrak so much, why even spend time in this forum? It's like the people who show up in iPhone forums to bash them and say how much better Android is. Literally makes zero sense.

It's a free online forum set up for people to share ideas, experiences, opinions, and criticisms. People are entitled to post negative opinions about what they feel Amtrak is doing wrong, issues they are having. Just because you disagree with the negativity doesn't invalidate others concerns. While you are correct that the Metroliner EMU issues have nothing to do with Amtrak, the other examples are valid points as having had problems during their various tenures and procurement processes. It's been reported on this forum by current employees who run and work on the equipment every day that a lot of it doesn't impress and continues to have issues. It's also a pretty commonly known fact that the antique infrastructure of our national rail network does not play nice with the Euro-designed equipment.

I consider myself an Amtrak supporter and ride regularly, but even I think there are things they can do better with, and others that they just fall flat on their face with. The prices on LD are too high, the food is hit or miss and doesn't always live up to the price paid, a lot of the equipment is showing its age, many stations look like they haven't gotten an upgrade since the light bulb was invented, many trains are dirty, some train crews can be a little rude, new equipment and projects are consistently delayed, etc etc etc... I know a lot of this isn't directly Amtrak's fault, especially with Congress Critters pulling the financial and regulatory reigns, but, they still count as negative opinions. It doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss them simply because you find them contrary to your own.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:04 am Um the Metroliner was ordered by PRR in 66, first deliveries in 67, service began in 69 under Penn Central. What on earth does Amtrak, which didn't come into existence until 2 years later, have to do with their issues?

It was a federal project, not a PRR project. PRR wanted little to do with this. Do some reading.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:04 amAnd you can't be serious about other agencies. Comet Vs were a disaster, Silverliner V were a complete shitshow. Plenty of complaints about PL42 when that was new.

Those are EIS issues. Everybody has them. 20 years later nobody cares. Happens in airliners, trains, etc... You iron out the bugs and let it run. By contrast, Amtrak has had multiple fleets that have not made it to their design life, and sometimes were sidelined very early on.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 12:04 amIf you guys hate Amtrak so much, why even spend time in this forum? It's like the people who show up in iPhone forums to bash them and say how much better Android is. Literally makes zero sense.

It's our tax money. It's our mode of transportation. These are unforced errors made by a poorly run company, financed with our tax money. This is a forum for the discussion of such. We are not happy and we are discussing it. There is no rule that says we have to have only good things to say.

All this aside, wouldn't you like to have better service? Ride more trains? It's not going to happen if we keep the Amtrak Circus running the way it did in 1971.

I ride Amtrak 6x/week. I also get to watch NJT meltdowns with the same frequency. So, probably more than anyone else commenting on this thread.

LD prices are high because people are paying them. That's kind of how capitalism works. Or are you saying that LD trains are running empty?

Amtrak hit record ridership in 2023, so they must be doing something right. Or did people just decide that they don't like driving and flying anymore?

I never suggested that Amtrak doesn't have issues. The point is everyone does. Further, they are very much limited by the funding they are (or more frequently are not) provided by Congress, as well as Congressional obligations that no regular business would ever be forced to endure.

Do I want better run service? Sure. I want lots of things. But I'm also realistic about the limitations that they have, including the country they operate in.

The MBTA had lots of trouble with their HSP-46's. And their Hyundai-Rotem double-decker coaches. And basically every non-FRA rolling stock (subway cars, trolleys) have been a disaster, along with poor maintenance & safety issues such as subway cars catching fire, wheel shearing off, guy caught in door & killed.

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:43 pm I never suggested that Amtrak doesn't have issues. The point is everyone does. Further, they are very much limited by the funding they are (or more frequently are not) provided by Congress, as well as Congressional obligations that no regular business would ever be forced to endure.

Do I want better run service? Sure. I want lots of things. But I'm also realistic about the limitations that they have, including the country they operate in.

Except we're not discussing an equipment order or procurement from 'everyone else'. This is specifically a thread on Amtrak's current equipment procurement, in the Amtrak forum. You're making it sound like we should be ashamed for expressing our frustration with the current delay in the new HST's? What's the point of having an open forum of conversation where everyone agrees, accepts, and worships the topic? That'd be a pretty boring avenue of communication, don't you think?

Us feeling upset about how something is doesn't make us 'haters', it makes us human and responding to things we think could and should be done better. I don't see anyone here saying Amtrak is horrible and shouldn't exist, the comments have been mostly based on frustration with a long overdue equipment order that seems to be hitting roadblocks that could probably have been avoided.