• AC6000CW verces CW60AC?

  • Discussion of General Electric locomotive technology. Current official information can be found here: www.getransportation.com.
Discussion of General Electric locomotive technology. Current official information can be found here: www.getransportation.com.

Moderators: AMTK84, MEC407

  by AMTK84
 
Hi Guys,

I'm not sure if these are both GE units, but I'm wondering what are the differences between UP's AC600CW's and CSX's CW60AC's?
  by Allen Hazen
 
These are GE locomotives, and -- essentially -- the same model. Model designations have become totally unsystematic (GE's insistence on writing "C40-8" as "Dash-8 40C" in the late 1980s didn't help), but the form I used in the heading is a reasonable guess: "AC" prefix denoting AC traction motors, "60" for horsepower in hundreds, "C" for six-wheel trucks, "W" for widenose cab. (I don't know what it says on the builder's decals.)
This model used the troublesom Deutz-designed HDL engine, and has not been built for a few years-- GE's announcement about the new "GEVO" engine talked about a 6,000 hp 16 cylinder version being on the way, so I would expect some ... call them "AC60 Mk 2" if you want, since it's anybody's guess what the official model designation will be ... to come out of Erie after everyone is happy that the bugs are out of the 13-cyl GEVO. (That is **my** opinion; I am **not** an industry insider.)
---
Variations: (i) UP units in the 7000 series were built with 4400 hp FDL engines: they are thus equivalents, operationallly, of AC44, though in the AC60 carbody and with various AC60 components. I think UP calls them "AC6044".
(ii) UP units in the 7500 series have the HDL engine, and as far as I know are rated at 6000 hp.
(iii) CSX units in the 600 series and low 5000 series have the HDL engine, and were initially rated at 6000 hp.
(iv) Because of engine problems, many CSX units have been derated, and at least one has had its engine replaced with an FDL (making it the equivalent of a a UP 7000).
(v) UP's units all have the "roller blades" truck, CSX's have GE's radial truck.

  by Justin B
 
What also confuses matters is that roads have their own designations. On UP, the AC6000CW and AC4400CW are known as "C60AC" and "C44AC" prolly to save space in the computer. Same thing with SD90's.... There is the 4,300hp SD9043MAC and 6,000hp SD90MAC-H. I don’t think those are official EMD designations.

Look for more of the same confusion when EMD comes out with the SD70ACe / SD70M-2.

I think they are purposely trying to confuse us! :P

  by AMTK84
 
OK so UP7059 is actually an AC4400?

  by Justin B
 
No, it is a C44/60AC. An AC6000 with the FDL prime mover. I think UP has over 100 of these beasts.

  by AMTK84
 
Well that would explain 1 of these things easily (I mean Easily) handling a long frate on its own. I just thought "O that's an old UP engine." How old are the UP 7000's?
  by D.Carleton
 
UP’s 106 C44/60AC’s were built between 1995-98. They were dubbed “convertibles” since they were built with the intention of replacing their 4400 hp engines with a 6000 hp production engine once all the bugs were worked out. Currently GE has 50 GEVO demonstrators roaming the open rails collecting real time/ real use data. GEVO production is set to begin next year. I’m guessing, with the 12-cylinder engines in the field, they may be working on a 16-cylinder variant. By next year the oldest C44/60AC’s will be ready for a midlife overhaul and may make an excellent test-bed for a new prime mover. From what I see UP is not shy about putting their C60AC's on the point of their hottest trains (for example the UPS test train from LA to Chicago had three). Adding over 100 6000 hp units may be just what UP needs for their growing intermodal service.

  by AMTK84
 
Would it ever be possable to overhall say an Amtrak P42 and put a bigger more powerful engine in place of the 4250 engine now?

  by Justin B
 
I wouldn’t expect to see that any time soon. The prime mover in those things is a regular 4,400hp FDL, but rated at 4,250 for traction because it also has to supply HEP. It wasn’t designed with the ability to swap the FDL for the HDL. Putting in an HDL would also necessitate designing all new electrical equipment. Further, its a 4 axle DC locomotive with a presumably high min continuous speed (I inquired to the P42 min speed but no one had an answer). Putting 6k hp into those motors at anything less than 35 or 40 mph would prolly smoke 'em.

And who is going to pay for all this? Amtrak sure as heck can't....

  by AMTK84
 
That's probably write...they can't even maintain the P42's...
  by D.Carleton
 
UP’s “convertibles” (GE C44/60AC’s & EMD SD90/43AC’s) were designed on a platform that could handle 6000 hp. The largest component in this equation is the cooling capacity for the prime mover. Generally speaking, production locomotives are downrated not uprated. Even now NS is downrating GP50’s to GP38-3’s (3500 hp to 2000 hp) for local service. There are always exceptions. AT&SF uprated a U23B to a SF30B (2300 hp to 3000 hp) which added more radiators to the rear of the locomotive. Only one was made. About the same time AT&SF also downrated several U36C’s to SF30C’s.

The P42 can only handle 4200 hp without a major redesign. A 12 cylinder GEVO theoretically could replace the 16 cylinder FDL with no appreciable rise in cooling demand. Whether this would be practical or not is another matter. Some have contemplated replacing the 12 cylinder FDL in the P32AC with a 12 cylinder GEVO to raise horsepower from 3200 to 4400. Again, the P32 was designed to handle only 3200 hp of heat load. The cooling system would need to be redesigned and enlarged. Possible? Yes. Practical? We shall see.

  by Justin B
 
At risk of straying too far from the topic....

I think the SF30B was a success but the GE reps blew a gasket when they saw what was being done to their locomotive and refused to service or keep it under warranty. Anyone else have any more info?

  by ATK
 
It is not possible to enlarge the cooling system in a P32ACDM. The packaging of the inverters, #2 equipment blower and cooling system was shoe-horned into the radiator compartment to begin with -- its simply not possible without major modifications to the carbody/platform. Besides, why would you want to put a GEVO engine in that locomotive??? The horsepower rating is more than sufficient for the type of service those locomotives run in. That, and I'm sure neither Amtrak nor Metro North is interested in going through a whole new learning curve on a different diesel engine.

  by Roscoe P. Coaltrain
 
What I think is flat-out funny are all those Amtrak trains that used to run with 2 F40s now using 3 P42s, and those trains which used to cross the Rockies using 3 F40s nowadays using 4 P42s. Something is amiss in the logic....

  by crazy_nip
 
Roscoe P. Coaltrain wrote:What I think is flat-out funny are all those Amtrak trains that used to run with 2 F40s now using 3 P42s, and those trains which used to cross the Rockies using 3 F40s nowadays using 4 P42s. Something is amiss in the logic....
back in "the day" amtrak didnt carry 10-30 (or more?) roadrailers behind the trains either...

that is why they used fewer F40's