2005 Transit Strike

Once again, we are not comparing the TWU contract terms to everyone else, and neither were they. They were comparing it to their OLD contract. The outcome would be less money, and an attempt to cut the amount of money future generations would be making.

Who's going to bid on this contract? A private company who is somehow going to make money of this? And who said the union was demanding more than they were worth? What would you have done if in your contracting (which is a BS charade in and of itself so that companies can get away with not having real employees to do those jobs) they refused to pay you what you think you were worth?

I'd love to see someone else bid on this and come up with the 33,000 people. Let's see how far THAT idea would go.

A privately held organization has a system of "checks and balances" to a point - the shareholders are a safety valve, they aren't going to let management make boneheaded decisions, while they also aren't going to let the workers sit around and gross moss.

Publically held organizations (state, regional, local) organizations are a competely different animal. The only desire to cut costs is to shift that money elsewhere (usually into higher ups pockets) Efficencies by labor tend ot be absorbed into teh bloating of managment. Save money one year, have extra money one year, and then the check writers say, "well, you obviously don't need this extra money in subsides, we are going to take them away now adn in the future. Management has no desire to streamline operations, and instead, uses that as an excuse to pad their own wallets "My department cut 100,000 in Overtime" "Congratulations, here is a 20,000 bonus, for you, for you, for you, etc, etc, etc. "We need to loose this amount of money, so we can get this much more next year......."

There is no "checks and balances" - its too politicial. Can't do anything amount teh management, they are appointed or know people in the legislature. Can't do anything about labor, because they are the ones (a front in some instances) who exist to give managers and political appointees jobs. People are saying, "no one should be entitled to 60,000 for just living and breathing" while millions and millions are being spent on salaries of political appointees and favors in other parts of the public companies. At least the workers have a defined job to do and for the most part do it, but those who stand 100 percent behind management, while they make these incredulous demands, while do the exact opposite in their own jobs and positions, always amazes me.

This still isn't over, not until a contract is actually signed and doesn't include some of the radical things the MTA was dying for.

trainwayne1 wrote:The gate has swung to far???????????? Have you looked at the price of real estate anytime lately? Or the prices of rentals in NYC? That someone could think that a person making $50,000 a year is living in the lap of luxury is ludicrious. In the area where I live EVERY new house that goes on the market sells for $600,000 or more.....I haven't met too many NYC transit workers at the mall lately. Can you blame the union workers for trying to maintain their way of life? Wouldn't you? If you do the math you don't need a degree in advanced calculus to figure out what it costs to raise a family and maybe put a kid or two thru college, so they don't HAVE to work for the MTA and fight for every dime they make. AND, since the MTA is trying to get provisions in the contract to pay lower rates, give less health insurance, and a reduced pension plan to new-hires, where do they think the workers are going to come from? I know....it's a step up from Wal-Mart. I fail to see how anyone who would begrudge someone else a living wage can be anything but a selfish self-centered thinking person. Do we really need for the biggest corporation in the country to have the highest percentage of people working who are below the poverty level, and on public assitance, be it Medicaid, or food stamps, or any other taxpayer supported subsidy. Take the time to search out some of the threads on this forum where you can read about what it's like in the REAL WORLD when you're working for NS, CSX or any of the other big railroads. Walk a mile in their shoes before you make judgements.

I'm assuming that one was flung my way. So allow me to qualify myself.

I've had over a decade of bottom jobs, none of them union. Delicatessens, retail, janitorial. Cleaning crappers and vomit on the night shift for $30 cash a shift for 3 years. And that was one of the better gigs.

Meanwhile, I've seen an alcoholic paratransit driver keep his job because he had a good union rep, as I watched him come home for his noontime brewsky then get back behind the wheel...a junky public school teacher keep his job long past his welcome (until he was finally caught with a spike in his arm on school property), also because his union protected him...and I can go on.

So, while you certainly have a right to your opinion and your sympathies... I cannot share them.

Ryanoov and to those that didn't quite understnad my post. I wasn't heartless at all. didn't you read the last bit of my last post? I said that thigns can definantly be changed and I did fault the TA for their mistreatment of employees especially the female employees who operate the trains and work with the work crews.

They shouldn't have struck on Christmas and make the rest of us suffer but waited until after the holdiays. Coudl you imagine what would happen if the US Ared forces were to strike during the Clinton era when we didn't get one damn raise or respect or even now but pretty close to the same conditons but this time on a War on Terror. There would be events that woudl take palce in the US that would make 9-11 look like a picnic. We for the greater good of this country cannot go on strike and so should the MTA workers. Remember 9-11? what if another oen happeend and we needed busses and subways to get people to a certain area for evacuations and just "walking it over the Brooklyn Bride" won't cut it. What will New Yorkers do then when they can't get buses and Subways to get people out of a dangerous area? Now that is greedy cosidering that theres no way you can evacuate by car or on foot at a resonable time.

I o agree that the MTA has alot mroe explaining to do on how they treat their employees but to put the blame on peopel who cannot afford to get to work by other means is PUNISHING THE LITTLE GUY. Like Janitors, teachers, busboys, students in public schools and the CUNY systems, waiters, waitresses and in many cases cops and firefighters who in alot of cases can't affrod a car, insurance or the gas buty can afford Metro Cards for the bus and Subway. What about their lsot wages for thsoe who cannot car pool beause they live else where?

Did Toussaint really think about that!?! So far most if not all the people of NYC and the local media (from what I've been reading on the NY Post and NY Times website) are against it.

I know the inner workings of a Union Ryanoov so yo udon't need to lecture me on that. I was part of Local 1262 UFCW at Shop Rite along with my parents and my father was a part of the Machinist workers Unions beofre he was laid off by the big uy and the palnts over time moved to Mexico so they can take adantage of the cheap labor. As being part of the big guy and anit Unions go you couldn't be further from the truth.

I've been an advocate for quite sometime as a son of blue collar workers against the exportation of American jobs going overseas and the smuggling of illegal aleins in this country so they can take whats left as non union law wage workers. Even at the retail level this has happened. yo uahve no idea how many comapnies I've boycotted (ie Wal Mart because of this.

Again i'm not anit Union I'm against poorly runned unions whose bosses are corrupt. Remember Eastern Airlines? That comay went under due to the unions and the combinations of Frankie Lorenzo destroying that historic airline like Easern. The unions could've demanded his osuter alogn with the ouster of Lorenzo's right hand man Frankie Borman but did not and went on strike punishing the flying public esp at Eastern's hubs in Atlanta, Boston, New York and Newark and as a resuilt American Airlines took over the Carribean and South American routes because they were bankrupt and eventually went under costing more jobs and the loss of an airline where the competition raised prices higher thus putting the burden on the flying public.

If you want public sympathy great but don't expect it when you strike at the worst time of the year to do it and screw the rest of us over and try our best to think on how a strike can not only afect you but regular folks who depend on a service to get them from point A to B.

Well, I'm glad that all the transit workers are finally back to work, even though they still have no contract, but the good part is, I have now dropped my threats of cancelling my NYC trip, now that the trains will be rolling and not colloecting dust sitting dead in their tracks.

ryanov: No, nobody would "make a profit" out of this. (Which is another thing to consider - Toussaint doesn't seem to understand that the money comes from taxpayers as well but that only makes him like any politician).

But here's a scenario. Granted NY is not Boston, but the MBTA puts their commuter rail contract out to bid every time it's due to expire. Amtrak used to run it, now a private company is doing it.

Now, the scenario could be another transit union, or maybe even a union like the Teamsters (not that they'd ever do this) coming in and saying "We can do the job cheaper and better". Perhaps they'll have different working rules. Maybe they'll even try to win over the public by implementing a MERIT SYSTEM. Getting raises just because you 'exist' is one thing - getting them because you EARN them is quite another. What if there were such an incentive in that union?

I'm sure it's not the majority of TWU workers who can't seem to make change. In my experiences on public transit there are plenty of outstanding workers but there are a few who are simply taking up space. Problem is, the public REALLY remembers those people.

This is like the postal unions where my wife works. The union (of which she is NOT a member and never will be) defends workers who show up drunk and pass out on the job. And by 'defend' I don't mean they try to help the worker get cleaned up and maybe into rehab. I mean they tell management that the worker can't be disciplined and then (here's where it just goes off into silliness) try to portray the worker as disabled and deserving of protection under the ADA! A union steward's assistant assaults my wife (throwing mail at her) and gets away with it because his Union Buddies will swear that the guy was in the union break room when it happened. (And just to pour salt in the wound, PROMOTE this guy to a position in another facility but that was their way of making him Someone Else's Problem)

The unions these days are just SO disconnected with reality - here's a hint boys, it's NOT 1940 - that they open themselves up for ridicule. (Kind of like politicians in that respect)

So many union issues that were VITALLY important have been taken over by the government. Safety (OSHA), discrimination (EEOC), labor laws, etc.. So what's left for them to do?

Toussaint says that it now was all about the pension issue - when the TWU originally proposed full pension at age *50* after *20* years of service! Only later did he back off to 55/25 - which still sounds unreal to the majority of the people who actually USE the MTA.

Point of interest: Anyone who has time, look up the National Labor Relations Act, Sections 7, 8 and 9. The Taylor Act is a violation of Section 7 in particular.

And although the LIRR and Metro-North were not involved with this, they have the Railway Labor Act on their side against the Taylor Act.

I work on Wall Street, but live in NJ. Just bought a house this year from a MTA bus driver. He in turn moved to a bigger house. The house cost less than half of the $600,000 houses that are being talked about in this thread.

Rent in NYC is not expensive, rent in Manhattan is expensive.

DoNotHump wrote:I work on Wall Street, but live in NJ. Just bought a house this year from a MTA bus driver. He in turn moved to a bigger house. The house cost less than half of the $600,000 houses that are being talked about in this thread.

Rent in NYC is not expensive, rent in Manhattan is expensive.

I have friends that rent in NYC. They pay more than I do (which is already a little high), or a little more, and have less than half the space. Not just Manhattan... Queens and Brooklyn also.

djlong wrote:But here's a scenario. Granted NY is not Boston, but the MBTA puts their commuter rail contract out to bid every time it's due to expire. Amtrak used to run it, now a private company is doing it.

Yeah, Connex isn't it? From what I hear, one of the saddest outfits there is. They are also no stranger to this trouble: http://www.iww.org/en/node/1574

djlong wrote:Now, the scenario could be another transit union, or maybe even a union like the Teamsters (not that they'd ever do this) coming in and saying "We can do the job cheaper and better". Perhaps they'll have different working rules. Maybe they'll even try to win over the public by implementing a MERIT SYSTEM. Getting raises just because you 'exist' is one thing - getting them because you EARN them is quite another. What if there were such an incentive in that union?

The problem is that the only people who get screwed here are the workers. This whole "I can do it cheaper" thing has been nothing but a race to the bottom. Capitalism should be very happy with the idea of jobs moving overseas -- better value for the dollar. However, how does anyone really win here? Sure, maybe the consumers win -- especially all of those who have already been bitten by this -- but only for the short term. However, I (for now) have a job that allows me to pay what things are actually worth, without having them assembled by southeast asian 6 year olds. I will be able to retire at a decent age. Don't forget, not paying workers properly hurts the economy... you pay all these workers only enough to buy from Wal*Mart and that hurts all of the small businesses that cannot go that low with their prices.

As far as merit systems go, they're inherently flawed. Who decides what merit is, anyway? If you don't perform well enough to deserve a raise (yeah, companies LOVE to give more money away at their discretion -- haven't you noticed?) according to your company, you get what amounts to a pay cut because your salary will not go up with the cost of living?

djlong wrote:The unions these days are just SO disconnected with reality - here's a hint boys, it's NOT 1940 - that they open themselves up for ridicule. (Kind of like politicians in that respect)

What has changed since 1940, except the majority of folks on this board seem to think that they and others are less deserving of a living wage with appropriate benefits than they did 60 years ago. What else has changed, exactly? To what are you referring?

djlong wrote:So many union issues that were VITALLY important have been taken over by the government. Safety (OSHA), discrimination (EEOC), labor laws, etc.. So what's left for them to do?

Defend workers' pensions, keep their health care free, fight for raises that keep up with inflation? Something like that, I reckon.

djlong wrote:Toussaint says that it now was all about the pension issue - when the TWU originally proposed full pension at age *50* after *20* years of service! Only later did he back off to 55/25 - which still sounds unreal to the majority of the people who actually USE the MTA.

No, it actually doesn't. If you read the stats from the news, it's actually about 45/55, and depending on the demographic, it is actually supported.

NJTRailfan wrote:Ryanoov and to those that didn't quite understnad my post. I wasn't heartless at all. didn't you read the last bit of my last post? I said that thigns can definantly be changed and I did fault the TA for their mistreatment of employees especially the female employees who operate the trains and work with the work crews.

They shouldn't have struck on Christmas and make the rest of us suffer but waited until after the holdiays.

So basically what you're saying is that "yeah, the MTA should have made these concessions, and if they wouldn't, the TWU should have done everything they could... ummm, short of inconveniencing people at Christmastime."

NJTRailfan wrote:If you want public sympathy great but don't expect it when you strike at the worst time of the year to do it and screw the rest of us over and try our best to think on how a strike can not only afect you but regular folks who depend on a service to get them from point A to B.

It's clear that public sympathy simply isn't there. Having to walk for three days is apparently hardship enough that it takes precedence over the livelihoods of the MTA workers. I don't think that people would have been any more forgiving if it it were any other time fo year. And really, that's a ridiculous idea anyway -- wait until fair weather? I mean, c'mon.

According to a press release: Connex, Bombardier and Boston's Alternate Concepts, Inc. - I don't know how that all divides up. The name of the group is the Massachusetts Bay Commuter Railroad Company.

And I would never take the say of just a union publication (regarding one worker in Stockholm). I've seen union lackeys get away with things that would land them in jail if they weren't at work (assaulting my wife was one). All because their "brothers in solidarity" would swear up and down that the allegations were false.

And it's not a race to the bottom. What if the Teamsters said we can do it BETTER? What if the Teamsters said "No drunks on our watch - you get one chance to rehab". What if they guaranteed *QUALITY* instead of just trying to milk 'management' for all they could get. When you are ABOVE the average and *demand* more and make life miserable for the millions who depend on that transportation, you lose the moral high ground.

Now - flip side imaginary scenario - if the TWU workers were being forced into overtime like crazy due to a lack of manpower and the MTA refused to hire more people then I GUARANTEE you they would have the public on their side. And they would't have to strike to prove their point. All they'd have to do is refuse the overtime and watch the MTA scramble.

[On Merit]. Who decides what is merit? Well, for one, I think performance can speak for itself. In the case of bus drivers or train operators you can collect some data pretty easily. I'm sure the MTA keeps track of accidents with their buses, on time performance, etc. Beyond that, well, welcome to the real world. We all have supervisors that we report to. Sometimes you get a PHB (Dilbert's Pointy Haired Boss) and I've worked for a couple of those.

What has changed since 1940? Well, people aren't really dying on assembly lines. Working conditions are FAR better than they used to be. And ABSOLUTELY the unions were an instrumental force in getting that ball rolling and KEEPING it rolling. As I stated before, the government has taken a lot of the responsibilities that unions had.

[Defend worker's pensions] And where is that money supposed to come from?

[keep health care free] Ok, you lose me there. Who do you think pays for health care? Have you seen what happens to those premiums? Do you know what it costs? I spent 7 years at Boston's Beth Israel Hospital and I can tell you a few stories. Health care is NOT - NOT - REPEAT NOT free. Now I don't say this to be condescending but do you know how health care came to be employer funded? It was due to wage freezes during WWII. The unions tried to find other ways to get more for their workers and "benefits" became a way to skirt around the wage laws.

There are a LOT of problems with the way we fund health care. I was lucky enough during parts of my career to have a "menu" of insurance plans to choose from because I worked for some very large companies. VERY few had the luxury of being allowed a shadow of the idea of 'competition'. I'm not in that situation now - we basically had a choice of 2 plans.

[fight for COLAs] COLAs are frequently written into the contract - at least that's how a lot of other unions have done it. That way they don't have to always fight for incremental raises.

[Pension details] I'll see if I can find the cites but it's kind of a moot argument until we see what they settle for.

ryanov wrote: It's clear that public sympathy simply isn't there. Having to walk for three days is apparently hardship enough that it takes precedence over the livelihoods of the MTA workers. I don't think that people would have been any more forgiving if it it were any other time fo year. And really, that's a ridiculous idea anyway -- wait until fair weather? I mean, c'mon.

33,000 people making an average of over twice the national median with starting salaries that far outpace police and firemen, with benefit plans that the majority of us would KILL for holding *millions* of people hostage in the dead of winter with an illegal strike that national and international union offices didn't support.

THAT is why you don't have public support for them. Yeah, that DOES take precedence over the *comparatively* good livelihoods of MTA workers.

The MTA workers that I've met during my recent trips to and through NY seemed pretty good to me. They are decently paid, from all accounts. Pretty fair, IMO (for whatever that's worth). Now, if they were having to put in schedules like my wife has had to do these past two weeks (postal service hell time) and had that year-round, they'd probably have the public on their side. Maybe not for a raise, but certainly to hire more workers - and the union would probably love the idea of more dues-paying, card-carrying members.

Ever wonder why COLA increases are not in any transportation agency's contracts, at least none off the top of my head? Management would have a heartattack - they would have nothing to negotiate away then, and probably couldn't afford them, or at least claim not too.

COLA's would be great - I know that Id love to get a raise equal to that of inflation every year. I bet the MTA workers would have loved to come even 1/2 to COLA with their LAST contract. Which they were far far from, but of course, everyone forgot that.

Who cares how benefits and healthcare came into fashion? They are there now, and to increase any contribution or loose any benefit is a step backwards FOR ANYONE - yes, I know how much health care costs today, and that companies and struggling to fund benefits. And thats a problem. But wouldn't the better answer be for the government to step in, and strictly regulate the industry, and the companies and the medical field itself? Why did a surgery I had with only 10 minutes of me being knocked out, require the doctor to bill my insurance company for the standard half hour, and 2 15 minute additional treatments of anestiesa (sp), at several hundred dollars a pop?

THATS why healthcare costs are skyrocking, between crooked docs and hopsitials and malpractice lawsuits wihch are completely out of control. But what has been the solution? to cut companies contributions to health care benefits, increase the employees part, and continue to let the fraud go on, completely unchecked.......screw that - if the slippery slope of giving away health care benefits was never started, the government would have HAD to step in years ago, becuase the companies wouldn't stand for it....., but they were able to take the easy way out, and can probably be traced back to ONE individual contract which started the downwards spiral.

As a side note, my healtcare costs have gone up 1000 percent this year with my new position. And Im not at all thrilled with it, becuase the fact that I am single has now hurt me, because I pay the same as a family of however many. Granted, I still don't pay a hell of a lot, but a 1000 percent increase is VERY signifcant, and in my opinion, very wrong. But hey, thats okay, right, thats good right? becuase I now have more moeny taken out of my take home pay that i can put toward legitimate businesses, instead of paying the crooks at the health insurance company. So you know what? Im gonna actually USE my medical benefits - im lucky to be young and healthy, but screw it, im gonna go to the doctor all the time, where as before it was YEARS since i even saw a doc in any way shape or form, but now, for every little thing to get my money's worth out of it, the now hudreds more i have to pay every year, im gonna be there.

Finally, to compare costs in the NYC area, to teh national averages is COMPLETELY unfair - Connecticut was number one is highest mediam household income, while NJ was second. While that might sound good on paper, its not the reality, with the rediculous costs of living in the NYC area. My salary could by me a mansion and acres and acres of land in much of the rest of the country, but here in Monmouth County, NJ, I have a tiny little house (well under 1000 sq feet) , 50 by 150 lot, and if I didn't inherit the house and land, I couldn't afford it.

Police and firemen, from what I know (im not too familiar with NYC's contract though) have for the most part, spectacular benefits, whcih although they might have smaller starting salary, the benefits more than make up for it. Along with better retirement (50 I think it is in NYC, with half pay). Not to mention many cops and firefighters get or can get overtime for the taking, which sort of throwns the whole base salary out the window. Not to mention, none of the jobs mentioned here are 9 to 5, monday to friday jobs - there has to be some compensation for not having a life (in many instances) Not everyone can take getting a call in teh middle of the night to report to work, shift work, over nights, school plays, Parent teacher confrences - maybe once every few years, family gatherings, birthdays, weddings, anniveraries, funerals, can forget about most of them too........... holidays? HA what are they? Barbeques on the weekends? yea right.........federal regulations also apply in many cases - it must be nice to simply crack open a beer whenever you want - people who work on call, simply can't - can't do things that "normal" people take for granted.

A small amount of additional compensatation, in pay or benefits, for these inconviences is not too much to ask. Also, in many instances, night differential pay is NOT an option - senority determines runs and positions to be held, meaning that its just tough luck your working overnights.

I heard on the news that a NYC firefighter was critically injured when he was hit by a shuttle bus hired by some company to transport workers during the strike. This is why I cannot support the strike, even if I feel the employees deserve better treatment. By using the public as pawns to get what they want, they show a blatant disregard for the people they serve. And when people get hurt, every union member who supported the strike has blood on his/her hands.