• 1960s Power at Worcester

  • Discussion relating to the NH and its subsidiaries (NYW&B, Union Freight Railroad, Connecticut Company, steamship lines, etc.). up until its 1969 inclusion into the Penn Central merger. This forum is also for the discussion of efforts to preserve former New Haven equipment, artifacts and its history. You may also wish to visit www.nhrhta.org for more information.
Discussion relating to the NH and its subsidiaries (NYW&B, Union Freight Railroad, Connecticut Company, steamship lines, etc.). up until its 1969 inclusion into the Penn Central merger. This forum is also for the discussion of efforts to preserve former New Haven equipment, artifacts and its history. You may also wish to visit www.nhrhta.org for more information.
  by NYC27
 
I'm planning an HO layout based on the NYC operations in Worcester in the mid-60s. One thing that I need help from New Haven fans on is how to model the transfer runs between the NYC and NH. Typical 60s practice nationwide was for the delivering road to run to the other line's yard and come back as a caboose hop. I can only assume that is how Worcester worked.

What would be typical NH power for this job at this time? Road power? RS2/3? Switcher?

NYC and NH both advertised through connections for service here, so I'm assuming the business was fairly brisk. I know the coal for the Mass Electric power plant on the B&A near Webster Square was routed via BO-WM-RDG-CNJ-LHR-NH and the meat for for Providence went NYC-wrctr-NH. Any help would be appreciated, I've never seen a photo of this operation.
  by edbear
 
Until the Penn Central took over the New Haven, Worcester (and Springfield) were operated by the New Haven and the B & M as a Joint Facility. This practice probably began when both roads suffered major traffic losses in the 1930s. In a Joint Facility, the better parts of the terminal are used. Crew assignments and yard power are pooled. You'll have to find someone who worked there or hung around there at the time to find the exact arrangements. Penn Central figured it was losing money on the Joint Facilities at Worcester and Springfield and abruptly cancelled them. B & M had to scramble and adjust its operations around Garden Street. The Boston and Albany was not a part of the Joint Facilities.
  by Tommy Meehan
 
I found a few shots taken at Worcester:

Click to view-

New Haven S2 at Worcester enginehouse, 1956.

New Haven FAs at the Worcester enginehouse in 1956.

NH FM H-16-44 coupled to an Alco (it looks like an RS-11)at the Worcester enginehouse, no date.

An Alco RS-11 at the Worcester enginehouse, no date.

This shot was taken in Oct. 1969 at Worcester. An ex-NH U25B (by then Penn Central), at what was (by then) the P&W's enginehouse.

Now it's March 1971 and an ex-NH GP-9 sits by the P&W enginehouse in Worcester.

The first two photos were taken by Edward Ozog on a fan trip, the next two by Wayne Slayton and the final two by George Bishop. That's six photos over a fifteen year span each of a different model.
  by Tommy Meehan
 
edbear wrote:...You'll have to find someone who...hung around there at the time to find the exact arrangements...
I found some interesting messages on the New Haven historical group's message board, from someone who grew up in Worcester back in the 1950s and 1960s. He recalls seeing about three sets of daily New Haven road trains into Worcester. (I'm not sure exactly where they originated as NH had two routes into Worcester.) Of the three inbound trains, two usually had a large block of cars, mostly boxcars I think, that were owned by B&M, MEC or one of the Canadian roads. The third train was, so he remembers, the per diem train, an evening train whose purpose was to get foreign road empties off the NH before midnight.

I've looked to see how much interchange was carried out at Worcester between NYC (B&A) and New Haven (the original question here was about NYC-NYNH&H transfer runs), but that information proves to be kind of hard to find. Fwiw I would suspect New Haven probably preferred interchanging with B&A at points further west. That possibly B&A did more interchange with B&M at Worcester than with NYNH&H.

New Haven also had a small hump facility in the yard at Worcester. I'm not sure, was it jointly owned and operated with B&M?

I'd also be interested in knowing about NH road crews at Worcester. Were they turnaround jobs or did NH maintain a bunkhouse there? Going way way back I think they did.
  by Tommy Meehan
 
I'm kind of cross posting some information from another thread because it apparently clarifies something about interchange between NYC (B&A) and B&M at Worcester.

I still haven't been able to find any figures on B&A-NH interchange at Worcester, but I did discover that my speculation that B&A might've had more interchange with B&M at Worcester than with NH is probably wrong. Apparently the B&A never had a direct interchange at Worcester with B&M, any interchange was via a short stretch of New Haven track, with NH getting a slice of the revenue. I don't know if B&A favored this connection -- apparently Penn Central, after acquiring New Haven, did favor it -- but after Conrail was formed (the P&W having taken over the former NH connecting track), Conrail effectively ended interchanging traffic with B&M at Worcester. That suggests to me that B&A wouldn't have favored interchanging with B&M at Worcester, either, because of the need to include NH and give them a slice of the revenue.

This is a link to a review of a lawsuit P&W filed against Conrail-B&M to restore the interchange. It has some brief historical information about the Worcester interchange, though only going as far back as the Penn Central era.

Btw, in another legal case I found on-line, it was mentioned that of the joint facilities at Worcester shared with B&M, New Haven had a two-thirds ownership. It was broken down as B&M one-third, Providence & Worcester one-third and Norwich & Worcester one-third.
  by 3rdrail
 
Due to the proximity of their B&A, did NYC have an arrangement to get servicing there as well ?
  by Tommy Meehan
 
I don't know positively if B&A ever used the B&M-NH yard for servicing but I don't think they did. I think B&A had their own yard in Worcester.

In a 1957 B&A ETT there is listed a yardmaster and a diesel house at Worcester. At the time the B&A still operated three or four weekday trains to Boston that originated or terminated at Worcester. I would think that fact plus the need to maintain whatever yard engines were based in Worcester probably meant Central had its own facility.
  by TomNelligan
 
The Boston & Albany had its own yard and roundhouse at Worcester, east of the station in the general area now used by CSX. The B&A never shared freight terminal facilities with the NH or B&M at Worcester (or at Springfield, either), although of course everyone used Worcester Union Station as a passenger terminal.
  by Tommy Meehan
 
I was a little surprised to find that B&A-B&M did not have a direct connection at Worcester. But according to the papers filed by P&W, they didn't. And Conrail confirmed they had moved their B&M interchange away from Worcester for that very reason.

Anyway, the question that started this -- and I don't think the original poster has been back since he posted the question :) -- was about transfer runs between the two yards at Worcester operated by New Haven (B&M) and Boston & Albany. Tom do you remember anything about that?
  by 3rdrail
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:I was a little surprised to find that B&A-B&M did not have a direct connection at Worcester.
NH - NYC - B&M - B&A - CVR at Springfield ?
  by Noel Weaver
 
In the New Haven days plenty of interchange took place between the B & A and the New Haven at Worcester but Framingham and Springfield also filled the same function. It all depended on just where on the New Haven the cars were either coming from or headed to. I suspect there was a reasonable amount of interchange between the B & A and the B & M in Worcester as well all through the 60's.
Noel Weaver
  by Tommy Meehan
 
I finally found one photo showing the NYC (B&A) yard at Worcester, from 1961. Click

Also a photo showing the B&M yard, which the caption says was "north of the NYC yard." Click

I don't believe that is the same yard as the one NH-B&M jointly operated. The downtown yard, so to speak. Here's a shot of that yard which the caption says was taken just after PC tookover. But it's dated 1968, so if accurate, PC actually hadn't taken over the NH yet. It's mostly B&M power, plus a New Haven Geep and, in the background, what I take to be the Norwich & Worcester Budd car laying over. Click.

.
  by Ridgefielder
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:I finally found one photo showing the NYC (B&A) yard at Worcester, from 1961. Click

Also a photo showing the B&M yard, which the caption says was "north of the NYC yard." Click

I don't believe that is the same yard as the one NH-B&M jointly operated. The downtown yard, so to speak. Here's a shot of that yard which the caption says was taken just after PC tookover. But it's dated 1968, so if accurate, PC actually hadn't taken over the NH yet. It's mostly B&M power, plus a New Haven Geep and, in the background, what I take to be the Norwich & Worcester Budd car laying over. Click.

.
What is the yellow-painted piece of equipment between the NH Geep and the enginehouse in the picture of the joint yard?

Also- is that a Nash Metropolitan in right foreground of the picture of the B&A yard?
  by Noel Weaver
 
Ridgefielder wrote:
Tommy Meehan wrote:I finally found one photo showing the NYC (B&A) yard at Worcester, from 1961. Click

Also a photo showing the B&M yard, which the caption says was "north of the NYC yard." Click

I don't believe that is the same yard as the one NH-B&M jointly operated. The downtown yard, so to speak. Here's a shot of that yard which the caption says was taken just after PC tookover. But it's dated 1968, so if accurate, PC actually hadn't taken over the NH yet. It's mostly B&M power, plus a New Haven Geep and, in the background, what I take to be the Norwich & Worcester Budd car laying over. Click.

.
What is the yellow-painted piece of equipment between the NH Geep and the enginehouse in the picture of the joint yard?

Also- is that a Nash Metropolitan in right foreground of the picture of the B&A yard?
This photo of the engine terminal at Worcester was taken after the New Haven had been taken over by the Penn Central. Note the GP-9 has already been renumbered as a Penn Central locomotive.
Noel Weaver
  by Statkowski
 
The "yellow piece of equipment" is a snow flanger, used to clear snow from the tracks. Penn Central painted them yellow (PRR Maintenance of Way colors), New Haven painted them red.

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