#14 Orange Line Cars 1400-1551 (From Red/Orange Procurement discussion)

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The Red Line 01500/01600s and Orange Line 01200s are not due for retirement until 2015, some time away. Will the 1988 01700s go as well, being imcompatible with later units?

Nope, the 1986 UTDC 01700s (actually built as early as 1986/87, 1988 was they year they were publicly debuted) will stay longer than the 015/1600s since these cars are a lot younger than the 015/16s

Some standardization WOULD be nice. After all, look what it did for the PCC fleet. Is there any reason we couldn't have a "SOAC 2" car since the original ran in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago? I mean, a car that would run in all those cities (even if not on all the lines), could be produced in numbers that would really give some economics of scale.

djlong wrote:Some standardization WOULD be nice. After all, look what it did for the PCC fleet. Is there any reason we couldn't have a "SOAC 2" car since the original ran in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago? I mean, a car that would run in all those cities (even if not on all the lines), could be produced in numbers that would really give some economics of scale.

I think that would especially help the smaller and/or newer agencies that weren't around when the first one came around, i.e. Baltimore, DC, Atlanta, Miami, etc.

The SOAC cars had GS-70 type trucks and were compatible with all 5 systems on which they demoed. The NYCTA took note of the lightweight trucks, and ordered a somewhat heavier outside frame unit from Rockwell for the R-46 fleet (756 cars). After that backfired they went back to their traditional design.

As for a joint order, the Orange and Blue lines shared the same loading gauge and the cross section was altered to fit the Blue Line. A new Orange line car could resume the 01100 cross section, but a Red Line car still has to be a few inches wider. With the differences in length and width, a common sesign will shortchange the Red Line which desperately needs capacity. Lengthening and widening the Washington Street Tunnel for Red Line sized cars would be VERY expensive for the benefit gained. The Orange Line coule use a stretched Market Frankford car and the Red Line could use a stretched Broad St. car. Otherwise we are better off with our orn designs. BTW - the 69' No. 1 Cambridge Tunnel design gave birth to both the 67' BMT standard and the 65' North Broad car, so there once were common designs. These adapted to the platform lengths designed in each city.

Robert Paniagua wrote:

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The Red Line 01500/01600s and Orange Line 01200s are not due for retirement until 2015, some time away. Will the 1988 01700s go as well, being imcompatible with later units?

Nope, the 1986 UTDC 01700s (actually built as early as 1986/87, 1988 was they year they were publicly debuted) will stay longer than the 015/1600s since these cars are a lot younger than the 015/16s

What was cause for the time delay from build date to actual introduction?

If "Standardization" is what the MBTA needs, I would think that they would be keeping an eye on the newest design that they've got that might be easily modified. . .
And that standard would be the new Blue LIne cars.

The original blue line cars were built very similarly to the Orange Line cars, so in a way, Boston's all ready tried a bit of standardization.

I don't see why in the future it couldn't happen again, with new orange line cars sharing a lot of the features of the new blue line cars. I think the only real change needed these days would be a longer body, and maybe slightly different trucks. I think that a lot of the Blue Line and orange line specs would be similar (performance-wise). The Red line could then possibly be done from the new Orange Line design. Its sort of a progression from the Blue Line design to a longer, more powerful design for the Orange Line, then a stretched/widened Orange Line design for the Red Line. I could easily see ALL the cars sharing a truck/motor design, along with numerous other similar parts (Such as resistors, controllers, door engines, lights, seats,etc.)

Standardization is good (maybe not for railfanning purposes), but I don't see a need for Bostons designs to be based on New York designs. Standardization on the MBTAs part should be done through the RFPs for designs, and maybe even be written into the contract for new equipment.

When we talk about SOAC cars, are these the ones up at the Seashore Trolley Museum?

Robert Paniagua wrote:

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The Red Line 01500/01600s and Orange Line 01200s are not due for retirement until 2015, some time away. Will the 1988 01700s go as well, being imcompatible with later units?

Nope, the 1986 UTDC 01700s (actually built as early as 1986/87, 1988 was they year they were publicly debuted) will stay longer than the 015/1600s since these cars are a lot younger than the 015/16s

The 01700s may go as well, since the new cars will (hopefully) be compatible with the 01800s and the 01700s will end up a small group of incompatible cars

atsf sp wrote:When we talk about SOAC cars, are these the ones up at the Seashore Trolley Museum?

Yes. http://carter.gamerspage.net/Seashore/large-13.html

Why Can't the MBTA try new technology? Like Open Gangway for their new Red Line and Orange Line train? Atleast open gangway will fit more people and use the wasted space between trains. Like the MBTA could get teh MOVIA from bombardier, they could stand + seated around 1500 people. and they should get those active road map like the ones on the R142 or atleast put like LED to show where you are and what station you going too. And for like South Station, Park Street, Downtown, Havard and other station they could install Platform Screen Door or Half Height Platform Screen Door. That will be much safer then just opening up a platform in the bustiest station in the MBTA.

Edit: Can MBTA make their train for reg. time 3-7 min per train? Like if is possible why arn't they doing it so they'll have a faster system.

itszjay wrote:Why Can't the MBTA try new technology? Like Open Gangway for their new Red Line and Orange Line train? Atleast open gangway will fit more people and use the wasted space between trains. Like the MBTA could get teh MOVIA from bombardier, they could stand + seated around 1500 people. and they should get those active road map like the ones on the R142 or atleast put like LED to show where you are and what station you going too. And for like South Station, Park Street, Downtown, Havard and other station they could install Platform Screen Door or Half Height Platform Screen Door. That will be much safer then just opening up a platform in the bustiest station in the MBTA.

Edit: Can MBTA make their train for reg. time 3-7 min per train? Like if is possible why arn't they doing it so they'll have a faster system.

Open Gangway might require shorter cars to get around the curve at Harvard, thus a loss of capacity. The use of platform doors wouldnt work for several reasons, the major one being different door locations on different cars. The 01800s also have 4 doors while the older cars have 3 per side. The 01400 work train has yet another set of door locations. The station stops are not programmed into the ATO system, they are manual, and not precise. Openings would also be required for the guard, who would have tp lean out further to see the passenger movement. OPTO would require union concessions. Most of these "improvements" are nothing more than ways to spend more money, and get little in return.

That being said, these ideas might work on the Orange Line which is more consistent.

What do you mean by reg. time? Headway?

I think that they should get open gangway train for orange line and stay with married pair for red line. I don't think orange line has that much curve, and i think platform screen door would be nice for orange line, Full Height for underground and Half Height above ground, I heard all the time on the news that people are getting kill falling in the track. From what i remember Full Height doors are around 1 Million $ each platform , and Half Height are around half million $ per platform. But Platform Screen Door are much cheaper now, due to the 2008 financial crisis. And orange line should really get bombardier MOVIA the MBTA could design it the way they want it. I don't see why they should put 4 door for their new train, 3 doors are better in someway (now seats) they could make the doors wider, and maybe lower cost of making it? Less Doors = Less $. Other wise for the red line they should stick with bombardier, and make like a upgrade version for the 1800 (so the new train could run with 1800) and have the same interior as the new Orange Line Train. Just put like a joint order with red and orange line (bombardier would prop give MBTA a good deal). Right now there is 74 Red Line (1500,1600) and 120 Orange LIne (1100) so maybe they could put a order of around 200?

-What i think the MBTA could bring cost down on their new train is get Car A (With Driver Cab) and Car B (w/o Driver Cab) so it would be A+B+B+B+B+A. (NYC is doing that too)
-Yea i was meant headway. I would be great if they could bring it for 3-7 for Orange Line and maybe 5-10 for Red Line during day times and they could stay the same for rush hour too.
-MBTA could try to do like how many min before the next train comes, that would be great.
-MBTA doesn't need stainless steel on their train (Aluminium is fine with me), is a waste of money, they could spent those money on other parts of the train.
-How wide are the Red Line Train? I know they have to be above 2616 mm.
-For their new train they should not put the post (bar?) near the seats, (when i ride on the T i feel like i am always feel i am too close to the person who is seating. They should put it on the center or the train, that means more people could grab on too.
-For the old Blue Line (600), Orange line (1100), and Red Line(1500,1600) train they should sell it to other subway system, maybe even selling the UTDC 1988 (1700)trains too, this would be a big face lift for the MBTA. (Oldest being the 1993-1994 Red Line 1800)

Red Line cars are 2896mm wide at the floor line and 3149 mm wide at the windows (9' 6" and 10' 4" respectively).

Most New Subway system today are all 3000 mm wide....so the red line train are pretty wide when you look at the date they were put in service. And i wonder if they will get rid of the Driver Cab in the Middle and have Car A in the front and end and Car B in the middle? Because wouldn't this save lots of money on train. I wonder if MBTA will ever get open gangway in Orange Line and Platform Screen door. I been reading lots of infomation on the Platform Screen doors and Platform Safety Gates. They are properly the coolest thing the MBTA could do. Does anyone think people will be dislike the idea of Platform Screen Door and Gates? And if MBTA do these thing, i'll be the first subway in USA to have open gangway, and maybe one of the first in N.American to have platform screen doors.

And i was think If they Install These Doors the train could enter the station faster, because they won't have to worry about people getting hurt when the train is traveling too fast.
why would 1500,1600 are around 40 years old and is still in service. It brakes down alot too. and they should bring bad the benches seats which has no defined of how many seats there is. It'll fit more people if there is smaller people. and bring bad the center pole so it'll hope more people.

Just remember, the MBTA is an old system. They can't widen the tunnel to fit the cars, but they can make the cars narrower to fit the tunnels. Thats why MBTA almost always gets custom equipment.