Dyre Av. historical Question.

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

Moderator: GirlOnTheTrain

Travelsonic
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:46 am

Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Travelsonic »

[This is based on the post I made in the "Proposed Co-op City Station? " thread on the Metro-North station.]

My question is this: When officials were looking at the NYW&B (and the NYNH&H ROW it used until closure) to create what is now the Dyre Ave. line, why did they only choose the stretch between Dyre and 180th Street, instead of say going down towards Hunt's Point/Casanova/Port Morris, or even going all the way down to Harlem River terminus? Finances? Planning? Seems odd that they'd let usable ROW go to waste.

Allan
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:10 am
Location: Bronx, NY

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Allan »

Travelsonic wrote:[This is based on the post I made in the "Proposed Co-op City Station? " thread on the Metro-North station.]

My question is this: When officials were looking at the NYW&B (and the NYNH&H ROW it used until closure) to create what is now the Dyre Ave. line, why did they only choose the stretch between Dyre and 180th Street, instead of say going down towards Hunt's Point/Casanova/Port Morris, or even going all the way down to Harlem River terminus? Finances? Planning? Seems odd that they'd let usable ROW go to waste.

I always wondered that too and none of the books I have found on the subject ever mentions why.

My guess is that there was not a huge demand for subway service on the ROW below E180th since the majority of passengers transferred to the 7th Av and Lexington Av services at E180th so they could continue into Manhattan. Perhaps if the ROW had a physical connection into Manhattan, people would have stayed on. This was one of the reasons the NYW&B failed - no direct access into Manhattan.

Kamen Rider
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Kamen Rider »

They only took that part becuase that was the only part The New Haven was selling within NYCTA's territory, the five borroughs. the NYWB and just the NYWB, was for sale. the line south of East 180 was and is the line to the Hell Gate Bridge, they would have never sold that. the car float connection at Bay Ridge was a core part of thier freight operations.

I should also point out that the idea of buying the line was to save the money that would have been spent on extending the IND Concourse to service the same area. Mayor La Guardia had sugested extending the IND, but was pointed to the old NYWB line since it was cheeper and was already right next to a subway station.
仮面ライダー / Kamen Rider
Rider JUMP! Rider KICK!

Travelsonic
Posts: 335
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:46 am

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Travelsonic »

the line south of East 180 was and is the line to the Hell Gate Bridge,
Not the part that went to the Harlem River per-se, if I remember correctly of course.

Kamen Rider
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Kamen Rider »

the NYWB ROW ended at where it met the NYNH&H port Morris branch now the NEC, the two ROWs then merged and contiued south. the harlem river terminal was in the pre existing New Haven freight yard.
仮面ライダー / Kamen Rider
Rider JUMP! Rider KICK!

RearOfSignal
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by RearOfSignal »

Dyre Av. my all-time favorite station as a kid, cause I lived right next to it.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

Trainmaster5
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:26 pm

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Trainmaster5 »

RearOfSignal wrote:Dyre Av. my all-time favorite station as a kid, cause I lived right next to it.
Then maybe you could tell me how far the n/b platform extended from the entrance to the station. I've been working the Dyre line for over 20 years and still can't locate the supports for the platform. All that's left is a steep enbankment and plenty of trees but no concrete, or wood for that matter. FYI the two stub tracks north of the station have been repaired and the whole area back there has been cleaned up.

Noel Weaver
Posts: 9630
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Noel Weaver »

The New York, Westchester and Boston right of way ended at 174th Street, West Farms at the junction point of the New
Haven's Harlem River Branch. For a long time the NYW&B trains below that point were shown in the NHRR employee timetable although in later years they appeared in the NYW&B employee timetable.
When the line was sold to the City of New York, it included the entire right of way from 174th Street (above) to the city line
but there was no need for service below 180th Street in those days nor today either.
A track connection was maintained for many years in order to accomplish rail deliveries of stone, materials and subway cars.
The NHRR used to haul stone out of Connecticut in special hopper cars lettered for the NYCTA and a yard job out of Oak Point would shove them up that connection and it was a tough move, upgrade and always slippery rail conditions. If we had a
lot of cars, sometimes two crews would have to doublehead the move.
On May 11, 1972 I was called to pilot SRS car 402 from Penn Station to 180th Street using the connection at 174th Street.
At that time the switch off the Hell Gate Line was spiked and clamped out of service so they had to call out a M of W crew
to take care of the switch for us. The switch was physically removed and the link disconnected very soon after this move
and it is not likely that this connection was ever used again after the above SRS move. Portions if not all of the bridge
work on this connection are removed today.
Noel Weaver

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: If it's Tuesday, It Must Be Belgium

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Jeff Smith »

RearOfSignal wrote:Dyre Av. my all-time favorite station as a kid, cause I lived right next to it.
Then you surely remember the Imperial Milk plant and Sinclair station at 233rd and Connor? Or is that Provost Av?

I loved riding this line from Pelham Pkwy. It's under-utilized for sure could be 4 tracks again easy. I'm foaming now for sure, but how much of the ROW is intact into Mt. Vernon? Could it be extended? Shame the ramp from 180 down to NEC is gone now. It would be a nice extension to SAS.
Next stop, Willoughby
~el Jefe ("Jeff Smith Rules") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

Noel Weaver
Posts: 9630
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Noel Weaver »

Sarge wrote:
RearOfSignal wrote:Dyre Av. my all-time favorite station as a kid, cause I lived right next to it.
Then you surely remember the Imperial Milk plant and Sinclair station at 233rd and Connor? Or is that Provost Av?

I loved riding this line from Pelham Pkwy. It's under-utilized for sure could be 4 tracks again easy. I'm foaming now for sure, but how much of the ROW is intact into Mt. Vernon? Could it be extended? Shame the ramp from 180 down to NEC is gone now. It would be a nice extension to SAS.
Sorry but the milk plant is beyond my memory. I don't think any of the right of way or at least not much of it is still intact.
At this point in time, it is not really needed that bad but it would have been a good idea if the NHRR had elected to save
the line between New Rochelle and 174th Street as an alternative to the bridge at Pelham Bay which has been know to cause
trouble in years past if not today too.
I don't know of the ancient clearances would have permitted operations of the NHRR passenger motors and cars but I
suspect they would as they cleared freight cars of that period.
Unfortunately the NHRR was broke and the property was sought by the city for transit use within city limits.
OH WELL!!
Noel Weaver

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: If it's Tuesday, It Must Be Belgium

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Jeff Smith »

Oh I agree 100%, it's not really needed. I hadn't thought about preserving as far as New Rochelle, although that certainly would have given flexibility.

I believe, but am not sure, that the line extends just a bit past Dyre Av for train storage. I'll have to check Google or Bing satellite. If you continue along Provost down to Gramatan Av, I think there's some places with retaining walls where the line was. It's mostly industrial, and I don't believe there's any street access to it. Beyond that, I'm pretty sure the line is obliterated with a few exceptions.
Next stop, Willoughby
~el Jefe ("Jeff Smith Rules") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

RearOfSignal
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by RearOfSignal »

Sarge wrote:
RearOfSignal wrote:Dyre Av. my all-time favorite station as a kid, cause I lived right next to it.
Then you surely remember the Imperial Milk plant and Sinclair station at 233rd and Connor? Or is that Provost Av?

I loved riding this line from Pelham Pkwy. It's under-utilized for sure could be 4 tracks again easy. I'm foaming now for sure, but how much of the ROW is intact into Mt. Vernon? Could it be extended? Shame the ramp from 180 down to NEC is gone now. It would be a nice extension to SAS.
Yes, I do remember the Milk plant, used to stand in the window and watch the milk go into the cartons. I think that very little of the ROW is still there into Mt. Vernon. Maybe a 100 or so yards past the the end of the current tracks is still vacant.

Technically, 233rd intersects with Provost not Conner, but I call that Conner street. You mean by where the sanitation depot is now, right? I do not remember any station there, that is way, way, before my time. Sorry.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

Jeff Smith
Site Admin
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: If it's Tuesday, It Must Be Belgium

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Jeff Smith »

When we went there, the milk was going into glass bottles, not plastic. Dang, I'm old. No disrespect intended to those senior to me, of course.
Next stop, Willoughby
~el Jefe ("Jeff Smith Rules") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator/Co-Owner

railfan365
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:55 am

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by railfan365 »

I've been up to E180th a few times in the last 10 years or so. In that time, the old NW&B tracks just run into the Interboro tracks, and off to the side is a few hundred yards of stripped trackway. It's a shame that the connection to the NEC was discontinued, though. That would have allowed greater flexibiility for pick-up and delivery of equipemnt and supplies.

User avatar
Otto Vondrak
Posts: 20285
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: New York

Re: Dyre Av. historical Question.

Post by Otto Vondrak »

Travelsonic wrote:[This is based on the post I made in the "Proposed Co-op City Station? " thread on the Metro-North station.]

My question is this: When officials were looking at the NYW&B (and the NYNH&H ROW it used until closure) to create what is now the Dyre Ave. line, why did they only choose the stretch between Dyre and 180th Street, instead of say going down towards Hunt's Point/Casanova/Port Morris, or even going all the way down to Harlem River terminus? Finances? Planning? Seems odd that they'd let usable ROW go to waste.
Was there any reason to go to the Harlem River Terminal area in the 1940s? I assume from East 180th to Harlem River was pretty desolate warehousing then... your only connection was with the Second Avenue El, but the portion north from 57th Street to Harlem River was eliminated in 1940 after the city takeover.
----------------------------------------------
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At

Return to “NYC MTA Subway and Rail, PATH and SIRT”