Amtrak Gateway Tunnels

[JamesRR]

All good points. It's clear the Hudson Tunnel Project was trying to circumvent the railroads. Interestingly, during the coal famine in the 1910s, the North River PRR tunnels were used to haul coal freight to Queens since the river was frozen. The city lifted its ban on freight in the tunnel due to the crisis.

[EuroStar]

After Cuomo met with Trump, now is Murphy's turn as per https://www.nj.com/politics/2019/02/mur ... ident.html.

Gov. Phil Murphy, who talked to the president here while at the annual winter conference of the National Governors Association, said the two planned to meet face-to-face to discuss Gateway in the near future.
...
Murphy said he first broached the topic with Trump on Sunday evening during the governors’ ball at the White House. When he returned on Monday for the governors’ meeting with the president, Murphy said Trump came up to him and suggested they get together. Such a meeting will be arranged after Trump returns from his summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, Murphy said.

I really do not see why Murphy thinks that he will have better luck than Cuomo who talked to Trump about this a few months ago, but it is a free country, so he is free to try ...

[WhartonAndNorthern]

"Tunnel for Wall" didn't get the NY/NJ pols to bite. Now that NY's and NJ's AGs are suing Trump over the wall emergency, I don't see much chance of a tunnel.

Unless Murphy somehow reminds Trump that if a catastrophe takes out one or more tubes, Trump National (Bedminster) members won't be able to get to their jobs (and have to move away) or won't be able to afford their memberships without jobs.

[Nasadowsk]

I really do not see why Murphy thinks that he will have better luck than Cuomo who talked to Trump about this a few months ago, but it is a free country, so he is free to try ...

Murphy can't even get any pull with his own party, in-state. Hell, Murphy can't even get NJT to behave.

[JoeG]

The Pennsy didn't work and play well with Tammany so it took 7 years, in an era of massive subway building, for Penn Station to get a subway station.
About a century later, a Democratic president who had a Democratic congress, did nothing for NY/NJ rail transportation needs.
His successor also does nothing for NY/NJ rail transportation needs.
There is a good chance that the Dems will get back Congress and the Presidency in 2 years, but will that actually get anything done? The unbelievably high cost estimate of the Gateway project is part of the problem. i suspect that the rest of the country is reluctant to give the NY Area that much money for a couple of miles of double track tunnels. And, they have the LIRR to Grand Central project as a good example of a project whose original cost and time estimates turned out to be way underestimated.
I don't really have a solution. I'm just glad that I am retired now and no longer have to take NJT to NYP. I don't know how much longer they can keep the existing tunnels patched with the duct tape and bubblegum they are forced to use.

[mtuandrew]

The only candidate I see as having the pull, the drive, and the ambition to finish Gateway on-time and on-budget is Sen. Klobuchar, with her experience on the I-35W bridge appropriations. Not to say others wouldn’t attempt or succeed, but that’s a good resume bullet point.

[eolesen]

Uh, it was Jim Oberstar and a unanimous House vote which saw the funds for the I-35 bridge appear. Norm Coleman did far more to move that along in the Senate than Klobuchar did. She's as exciting as cold oatmeal, and with her temper, I doubt will make it much past March in the Primaries (if even that far) before imploding.

The way telecommuting is eating away at transit agency revenues, I have to agree that it would take a collapse of a tunnel to get anything done. And, a sudden loss or downgrading of service would only accelerate telecommuting and/or see Manhattan based companies follow their 9/11 strategy of opening up satellite offices in NJ. After seeing how Amazon was welcomed, it wouldn't surprise me to see a few more companies leaving NYC. They know profits and high paying jobs aren't welcome.

[Arborwayfan]

I think you mean "they know that New York recognizes that it is a very desirable location for businesses and is unwilling to give out huge tax breaks to companies to get them to locate there, especially if those companies' business model is to use very low-paid workers in unpleasant and dangerous working conditions to undercut local businesses all over the country, including in New York, and put them out of business". And that unwillingness to give away tax breaks sees pretty reasonable to based on the city and region's need for revenue for infrastructure, let alone for other services.

Much like when Boston refused to build the Pats a stadium and the city didn't exactly fall apart because of it, I think the decision of the people of New York to overrule their mayor and governor's initial offers to Amazon will turn out to have been very smart. A year or so ago someone wrote that the cities on the short list should all get together and refuse to offer tax breaks, or all offer the same limited package, as a way to fight back against the race-to-the-bottom blackmail that the big corporations use to get cheap digs. It would have been a good idea. These companies (and Olympic committees and whatnot) that want cities and states to provide all this wonderful infrastructure and tax breaks so the companies don't pay for it are one of the reasons that we don't get the roads or the rail infrastructure we should have.

[bostontrainguy]

And it will be these same AOC type grass roots groups that will fight tooth and nail to prevent any high-speed rail projects from being built. Luckily Gateway won't need to condemn any neighborhood properties with eminent domain, but surely most of the other planned projects probably will.

[mtuandrew]

And it will be these same AOC type grass roots groups that will fight tooth and nail to prevent any high-speed rail projects from being built. Luckily Gateway won't need to condemn any neighborhood properties with eminent domain, but surely most of the other planned projects probably will.

I think you might be surprised about that assertion - not necessarily by the progressive young left but by who leads the charge against HSR. Hint: they have 401ks

[Defiant]

Well then, I guess NJ will just have to wait until two branches of the federal government see fit to devote what amounts to an enormous amount of the federal DOT budget to one rail project.

I get that NJ doesn't see much direct income tax from NY commuters, but it's not as if when person X can't get to work in NY from Short Hills, he just gets an equivalent job in NJ. Rather, he probably likes keeping his job, so he'll moves out of NJ. That guy is (or was) paying NJ income tax on investment income, paying sky high property taxes, paying NJ sales tax on everything he buys, etc. The notion that NJ is disadvantaged by having a ton of people commute from NJ to NYC every day is not unusual, but I think utterly misplaced. NJ wouldn't thrive without commuters into NY, rather it would be more likely to out and out collapse without that professional base.

Exactly. I live in NJ so I am very familiar with the challenge of this state. This is a relatively small state by population, sandwiched between two bigger states, NY and PA. I understand that NJ has the one of the highest percentage of NJ residents who work and pay taxes in other states. This probably one of the reasons for chronic financial issues that the state faces and its lowest bond ratings. It absolutely can't take up all the debt to fully finance the Gateway. But I think it should come up with its own share of the needed amount soon.

It is absolutely wrong to say that NJ has no incentive to finance Gateway. Yes, people who work in NYC don't pay most of the NJ income tax. But then they don't qualify for a lot of state's services, such as unemployment. But commuters to NY do pay local property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes. And it is not like if the tunnels fail, they will be able to just get similar job in NJ. There aren't that many extra, decently paying jobs available in NJ. Instead, they will probably have to move away from NJ or remain unemployed. There will be a huge disruption of the whole tri state economy and huge increase in choking traffic. Even people who drive to work and don't use NJT will suffer greatly:
https://www.nj.com/traffic/2019/02/the- ... ansit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JamesRR]

Going back to my earlier example of the Holland Tunnel, at the time it was being planned, two major projects were on the docket: Holland Tunnel and a bridge over the Delaware into Philly. The reality is, as said above, NJ doesn't really have a major urban hub. South Jersey feeds off Philadelphia, and North Jersey feeds off of NY. Central Jersey is kind of split between the two. NJ is dependent on these cities, but then again, those cities are dependent on NJ for resources, too (mostly in the form of talent).

Ultimately, poor planning put us in this position. As NJT has grown to become the third busiest commuter rr in the country - adding more trains to Penn via the Kearny Connection in the '90s, among more on the NEC - tunneling planning should have happened in the 90s. Independent of it deteriorating, but merely for capacity. Same goes for Penn St.

Just like the Holland, NJ and NY need to mutually fund the project because it benefits both states. Don't forget, it's not just commuters who use the trains - tourists, visitors, those who spend lots of tourism $$ in NYC annually.

[mtuandrew]

Honestly, NJT should have a terminal in lower Manhattan, directly connecting the Hoboken lines to NYC. I’m talking the far-distant future, 2050 or beyond, or when PATH needs new tubes anyway and they can bundle six tubes together (two PATH, three rail, one emergency evacuation.) Especially if they can build this mythical terminal pointed straight at LIRR Atlantic Ave Terminal.

But that doesn’t reduce the need for new Gateway tubes, and replacement North River Tunnel tubes.

[Defiant]

Ultimately, poor planning put us in this position. As NJT has grown to become the third busiest commuter rr in the country - adding more trains to Penn via the Kearny Connection in the '90s, among more on the NEC - tunneling planning should have happened in the 90s. Independent of it deteriorating, but merely for capacity. Same goes for Penn St.

The planning happened and it became a fully funded ARC project. That Idiot Christie killed so that he can get reelected. That was an NJT project, not Amtrak's, aimed to increase trans Hudson commuting capacity. While the project had its flows it nevertheless would've provided extra capacity. It would've been complete this year had that moron was not elected.

Just like the Holland, NJ and NY need to mutually fund the project because it benefits both states. Don't forget, it's not just commuters who use the trains - tourists, visitors, those who spend lots of tourism $$ in NYC annually.

Yes but only for NJ residents is the timely NYC access is a source of their livelihood. I guess for NY as well but NYC has such an excellent access to talented people that it can probably replace all or most NJ residents employed in Manhattan by either NYC residents or residents of NYS suburbs. But that would still generate a lot of disruption so NYS should contribute to Gateway for their own benefit.

[andegold]

When was ARC fully funded? Your belief that ARC would have been complete by now reduces your credibility to near zero. While the various bridge projects in the area (Tappan Zee, Goethals, Bayonne) may have been completed on or near on time what was the last tunnel project anywhere in the country that was finished on time or on budget? The only recent examples of tunnels that I can think of are the Big Dig and East Side Access. Neither of which are shining examples of successful project management. What makes you think that ARC would have been any better?