Concrete Ties

[morris&essex4ever]

How are the concrete ties NJT has installed on their tracks been doing?

[blockline4180]

How are the concrete ties NJT has installed on their tracks been doing?

What do you mean "how"??
AFAIK, NJT hasn't really installed many concrete ties lately. In fact track 2 in the Denville/Mt. Tabor area has wood ties that are waiting to be installed.

[morris&essex4ever]

I meant are they faring better than the defective ones on the NEC Amtrak has been replacing?

[sullivan1985]

I meant are they faring better than the defective ones on the NEC Amtrak has been replacing?

I would say so. The biggest problem I've seen from the trains is in areas where concrete ties have recently been installed (the last 2 or 3 years) there is a lot of mud pumping though the roadbed. I remember MTA Metro-North had a problem with a few thousand ties a few years ago too shortly after installation.

As for new ties, NJT seems to have put a hold on large segments of concrete tie replacement and has been using wood to replace ties as needed.

[ATCFault]

I meant are they faring better than the defective ones on the NEC Amtrak has been replacing?

I would say so. The biggest problem I've seen from the trains is in areas where concrete ties have recently been installed (the last 2 or 3 years) there is a lot of mud pumping though the roadbed. I remember MTA Metro-North had a problem with a few thousand ties a few years ago too shortly after installation.

As for new ties, NJT seems to have put a hold on large segments of concrete tie replacement and has been using wood to replace ties as needed.

Poor drainage causes uneven sections of track, which is why it sometimes feels like you're hitting a switch, when you are on straight track.

[Jtgshu]

The stretch of track up by the Cush/Tunk siding on the RVL was rebuilt with concrete ties from Whitehouse station west. That stretch was smooth as silk at first. Now, there is a 10mph restriction diverting at Tunk, and the track especially on the Main is like a roller coaster, with the whole thing like a big mud pump.....

The rest of the line with the wooden ties is much better.......

[amtrakowitz]

I heard of NJ Transit experimenting with composite ties at one time, which use various recycled materials combined with filler, mostly plastic (some include recycled rubber from used tires, and waste fiberglass). Do not recall the location they were installed, but was wondering about the results. They resemble wood ties superficially, BTW.

[hammerfang]

Why are the wooden not subject to the issues of the concrete ones?

[sullivan1985]

Wood ties are softer and give to the weight of the train. It makes for a quiet and smooth ride. However wood (like anything else organic) rots over time. Concrete ties can hold out to weather conditions much longer but are also stiff and do not give to the weight and can crack if not maintained.

[Patrick Boylan]

I'd guess if all other things are equal, concrete ties must be heavier than wood ties, so would sink deeper into the mud, and aggravate the pumping other posters have mentioned.

[Jtgshu]

I'd guess if all other things are equal, concrete ties must be heavier than wood ties, so would sink deeper into the mud, and aggravate the pumping other posters have mentioned.

True, that doesn't help either, but remember wood absorbs water, concrete doesn't. So on a rainy day, with lots of rain falling down, a Concrete tied track is going to have more water pushed into the dirt/ballast as opposed to the wooden ties. More water in the ballast/dirt makes more mud. More mud equals more "mud pumps" which equals more bumps and dips and sags in the track structure.

It seems from my own observations, that concrete ties are very good, but simply cannot always be replaced 1:1 with wood ties without some additional drainage improvements to the track, especially if there are some poor drainage or sub-roadbed conditions.

While the stretch on the RVL by the Cush/Tunk siding seems to be pretty well built and has adequate drainage (not in a cut, or flatland, etc), I suspect that up there, the composition of the ground might be what is causing hte problems up there with the extra water not being absorbed by the concrete ties and pooling and making mud is what is causing the problems up there....

again, these are only my observations about it, Im not THAT kind of engineer, but I do have some experience in dealing with some water/drainage issues and soil composition etc.

[cjvrr]

There shouldn't be any mud pumping if the ballast is doing its job and draining the water away.

[Uzi-Cat]

One thing on the M&E that I have noticed is that where the concrete ties have been installed recently, there are far more mudspots than their used to be. Roseville Cut was always good for lots of mud pumping but now you can't go a mile on the M&E without experience mudspots. It is actually quite fun in the multilevels. They hit hard on some of the mudspots.

[HBLR]

That explains the mucky looking tracks I see here and there!

[Ken W2KB]

I heard of NJ Transit experimenting with composite ties at one time, which use various recycled materials combined with filler, mostly plastic (some include recycled rubber from used tires, and waste fiberglass). Do not recall the location they were installed, but was wondering about the results. They resemble wood ties superficially, BTW.

Can't speak to NJT but the Black River and Western installed many of these some years ago in a cooperative effort with the manufacturer. Many of them have split, so were not particularity successful, and I believe are no longer made. There are several next to the Ringoes, NJ passenger platform if anyone is interested in seeing them. In recent years the BR&W has installed wooden ties. I believe that concrete ties have displaced any further development of the composites.