KGT's Fantasy Map

[Kew Gardens Teleport]

Well, here's to delurking. Yes, I have already posted a version of this map elsewhere on the internet, but there may be people who haven't seen it. I'm sure that there are a lot of ideas on this that are familiar.

(Click to enlarge)

[RearOfSignal]

Yes, this map is truly fantasy. Subway service to Westchester, Connecticut and New Jersey? But I guess that's why it's called a fantasy map.

[Radioguy]

Long Island too.

I'm glad to see a Brooklyn crosstown, but I'm surprised you didn't utilize the LIRR Bay Ridge branch for it. Love the cross bay from Brooklyn to Rockaway too.

[Paul1705]

It certainly is comprehensive!

One detail: if you've going to extend the 4 train to McLean Avenue in Yonkers, it might as well go another mile or so to the Cross-County shopping malls.

[Jeff Smith]

You're missing the 125th SAS extensions across town. And it looks like you're trying to turn MNRR into an exurban railroad rather than a suburban railroad by replacing local zones with subways. While that may not make much sense, I wouldn't preclude an extension of the subway system outside city limits. I've always thought extensions into Yonkers and Mt. Vernon would make some sense. The problem is, no one wants an elevated extension (which is why the N doesn't go through Astoria to LGA).

[Radioguy]

ROFL....just noticed.....59th & Lex would take 50 years to build and probably require the destruction of Bloomingdales.

[Paul1705]

Extensions to Westchester County could be built underground, but I don't see that happening for decades. Of the various options, the route to downtown Yonkers might be the most promising.

The commuter railroads could be converted to something like the RER network in Paris. A connection between Grand Central and Penn Station could make it happen. It probably wouldn't be necessary to build the longer tunnel shown here - the one crossing Manhattan from northeast to southwest.

[RearOfSignal]

There are so many hills in the middle of Yonkers I doubt a rail line could be built. Look at all the past and present lines that run through Yonkers, they all follow along river valleys. The only area of Yonkers that is probably geographically capable of holding a rail line is Central Ave. I know I live in Yonkers.

[Kew Gardens Teleport]

I'm glad to see a Brooklyn crosstown, but I'm surprised you didn't utilize the LIRR Bay Ridge branch for it.

I wasn't really convinced the Bay Ridge line added much once the Myrtle-LGA, Utica, and Flatbush lines were in.

Love the cross bay from Brooklyn to Rockaway too.

That was probably one of my less serious moments on that map... But it's better than the Q35 bus!

One detail: if you've going to extend the 4 train to McLean Avenue in Yonkers, it might as well go another mile or so to the Cross-County shopping malls.

Good idea. What I was doing up there was replacing the Woodlawn terminal with something that could turn more trains, so it would be great if it could end up somewhere useful too.

You're missing the 125th SAS extensions across town.

Yes. I've taken a different approach to Second Avenue to say the least. And I wasn't convinced that both 125th and 145th-149th Street crosstowns were needed. What pushed me towards the more northerly option was less duplication to get to LGA and a station to replace 148/7 and 145/Lenox.

And it looks like you're trying to turn MNRR into an exurban railroad rather than a suburban railroad by replacing local zones with subways.

Well, it's very much like what's done in London and Tokyo. Commuter rail as done in the USA is very employee-heavy, so there's even more of an argument for an (administratively) transit implementation on shorter distances.

While that may not make much sense, I wouldn't preclude an extension of the subway system outside city limits. I've always thought extensions into Yonkers and Mt. Vernon would make some sense. The problem is, no one wants an elevated extension (which is why the N doesn't go through Astoria to LGA).

The great thing about fantasy maps is you can buy off the NIMBYs and build subways in places like Yonkers and New Brunswick.

ROFL....just noticed.....59th & Lex would take 50 years to build and probably require the destruction of Bloomingdales.

There's only an extra 2-track east-west line and a really deep vaguely north-south (at that point) line there!

The commuter railroads could be converted to something like the RER network in Paris. A connection between Grand Central and Penn Station could make it happen. It probably wouldn't be necessary to build the longer tunnel shown here - the one crossing Manhattan from northeast to southwest.

There's only so much capacity in the Park Av tunnel, and the flat interlocking in Mott Haven (I've forgotten the exact name) is a massive limitation -- it's ultimately why the conventional idea of running a better Harlem Line local service that comes up from time to time gets shot down every single time. If you take out the inner services, then the Park Av tunnel becomes 2-track Hudson Line outer plus 2-track Harlem and New Haven lines outer.

The southern part of that route is about giving a trunk line to various large ill-served areas, although I admit it looks unconventional.

There are so many hills in the middle of Yonkers I doubt a rail line could be built. Look at all the past and present lines that run through Yonkers, they all follow along river valleys. The only area of Yonkers that is probably geographically capable of holding a rail line is Central Ave. I know I live in Yonkers.

Well, Westchester County (as with much of the New York metro area) is classic light rail territory. But that's another fantasy map... Or probably several, or it would never fit on any screen...

[Paul1705]

A couple of Bronx/Westchester comments:

A subway under Broadway in Yonkers up to Getty Square would be feasible - the route avoids the hills around it. (I still don't expect to see it soon!)

There is indeed congestion at the Woodlawn station at the end of the 4 line. Tail tracks beyond the station would be useful (and I might live to see that).

Ah, what happened to the Harrison station of the former PATH system? It looks like it was abandoned because of a re-route.

[Crabman1130]

You missed the reintroduction of service from the LIRR Penn to Rockaway.

[umtrr-author]

You could extend the line northward from Carteret along the remains of the Sound Shore Branch... then over to the CNJ Elizabeth and Perth Amboy branch to Elizabethport. Then east to Jersey Gardens, west to Elizabeth and connection to the NE Corridor (or the "Y") and north to E Ferry Street for connection with the "Z"...

It has to be a fantasy map if Carteret has rail service! Special stop at the historic site of the Creosote Plant (after you sign toxic waste waivers that is...).

[Otto Vondrak]

A subway under Broadway in Yonkers up to Getty Square would be feasible - the route avoids the hills around it. (I still don't expect to see it soon!).

There was a rail route to Getty Square that ran from Van Cortlandt Park and was all on bridges and fills. No subway needed.

[Paul1705]

Yes, there are still some remnants of that line in Yonkers; however, it appears to be far from intact now. I'll have to take another look to be sure of what is there now.

Offhand, I think it was abandoned around 1943.

[Jeff Smith]

A subway under Broadway in Yonkers up to Getty Square would be feasible - the route avoids the hills around it. (I still don't expect to see it soon!).

There was a rail route to Getty Square that ran from Van Cortlandt Park and was all on bridges and fills. No subway needed.

Otto, you're slipping! No plug for your book or web-site? Here, I'll do it for you!

Otto's Fantastical Web-Site!

Yes, there are still some remnants of that line in Yonkers; however, it appears to be far from intact now. I'll have to take another look to be sure of what is there now.

Offhand, I think it was abandoned around 1943.

Paul, Otto wrote the book on that line. Literally!