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  • Cape Flyer

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

 #1534575  by Safetee
 
One of the great fallacies of "modern" thinking is that passenger trains do make or should make money. If passenger trains really made money nobody would take them because they would be too expensive. and that cost of public transportation in terms of the fares charged is typically along with the service the criteria for people who gauge as to whether they or not they drive their car which,as we all know, is absolutely free "except for the gas".

So getting back to the Flyer which is a part time seasonal train, how do you truly figure the marginal costs for that operation viz a viz a regular commuter train from Boston to Providence? Part of the problem with the T is that figures that they spin today spiral out of control tomorrow with the resultant ever growing T deficit. My point is that if a jammed commuter train running five days a week doesn't make any "profit", how could the Flyer possibly be making money? Ultimately public transportation is a societal needed service that is heavily underwritten by taxpayer dollars.
 #1534585  by Falmouth Secondary to Otis
 
You really can't be serious in saying that driving a car is absolutely free " except for the gas " ? There is nothing free about owning a car as you put out the cash and interest also if you get a loan for purchasing a car, yearly maintenance / repair costs , licensing, insurance, sales / excise taxes, parking fees if required, then you pay for the gas with federal & state taxes included. Certainly not free !

The Cape flyer has always been promoted as only covering it's operational cost's and some. It's infrastructure / train's are largely paid for and maintained with State and Federal tax dollars that we all pay. The rest is any charges for the use of the tracks to any other private Railroad, ridership fees, advertising revenue, and any real estate income from leased / rented out State owned property to private vendors.
Last edited by CRail on Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total. Reason: Unnecessary nesting quotes removed. Do not use the "quote" button as a reply button.
 #1534587  by Arborwayfan
 
I think Safetee means that when people who already own a car are deciding whether to drive or take public transportation, they treat driving as if it were free except for gas and tolls -- because they are paying to own the car anyway and don't give a lot of thought to whether driving will mean they need a new car sooner. I don't think he's saying they are right.
 #1534592  by Falmouth Secondary to Otis
 
Then Safetee's viewpoint need's some updating then if that is the case, because cars operational / ownership costs are certainly not free.
Last edited by CRail on Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Unnecessary nesting quotes removed. Do not use the "quote" button as a reply button.
 #1534598  by nomis
 
I guess you missed the sarcasm in Safetee's sentence of
[...] whether they or not they drive their car which,as we all know, is absolutely free "except for the gas".
Emphasis mine. Most people have a thought that the operational and ownership costs are a 'Sunk Cost' in many peoples minds and those types of figures do not weigh into the simple calculations of taking a round trip of either: $40 train or $20 of fuel+tolls for a single occupant.
 #1534601  by Arborwayfan
 
Sarcasm. Exactly. Safetee can tell us for sure, but I am pretty sure they're not saying that it actually is free, just that many people treat them that way. And they do. It's measurable. Transportation economists and so on have documented it. And, really, once you've bought your car and agreed to pay the car payment and pay the insurance, you do have a large cost every month that you can't avoid by taking public transit. Your car rides aren't free, but a big part of their cost is prepaid and so it's rational to treat them as free as long as you think you're going to keep prepaying. That's one reason that public transit gets a lot more riders when it's good enough that lots of people really don't ever need a car -- and why plentiful cabs and ZipCars and so on are good for public transit.
 #1534660  by wicked
 
At what point of service does the train not cover operating costs? Four RTs per week? Two RTs every day? I’m assuming the CCRTA has researched this. I know there is regular bus service between Boston and Hyannis, but I’d feel better about taking the train down if there was a second RT each day it’s in operation.
 #1534665  by MickD
 
Won't happen..at least not in the forseeable future
I use CCRTA often and know several people directly associated with The Flyer..
Other than possible Columbus Day extension...
What you you see is what you'll get
 #1534681  by Backshophoss
 
The Cape Flyer is funded seasonal service,with all parties adding $$$$ to the pot in some form,including the farebox.
Not sure if the Bike/Cafe car adds to the pot, due to "limited"service time(Cafe not active on MBTA territory).

Saftee:Fuel(gas or diesel) ain't FREE,look at all the taxes the Fed and state put on fuel!!! :P
 #1534928  by eustis22
 
I would be surprised indeed if fully loaded T trains don't cover their operating costs. I suspect the deficit the T always faces is from capital improvements and upgrades/maintenance to their physical plant/rolling stock.
 #1538756  by Falmouth Secondary to Otis
 
Has anyone heard any news regarding the Cape Flyer operation for this season with all the shutdowns / restrictions due to COVID-19 ? It's only about 7 weeks to go until it's normal schedule would begin.
 #1538761  by trainhq
 
Good question. I’ve ridden it before and found it to be a lot of fun. Was looking forward to maybe doing a Sunday day trip to go to Hyannis and go fishing. BTW, there was a
lot of work done upgrading the line a while ago. The Cape flyer benefited from that. The fare recovery does NOT pay anywhere near what the upgrades cost.
 #1538774  by Backshophoss
 
Figure on a delayed start up,or a whole season cancelation,depending on when the virus peaks in MA,
Also Mass Coastal might be tangled in the IP Bankruptcy. :(
 #1538788  by GP40MC1118
 
There was major culvert work east of Hoxie's Pond in East Sandwich recently.

I agree its either postponement or outright cancellation for the Flyer unless there's
a major turnaround in the pandemic. Cape Cod probably doesn't want it until its
over. There was even a petition to close the Cape Cod Canal bridges two weeks ago!

d
 #1538798  by Falmouth Secondary to Otis
 
Definitely will be delayed or cancellation of service I would think. Only the Federal government has the authority to close the Canal bridges, not a bunch of panic stricken residents who have since back tracked on that statement saying they meant we should be following the travel advisory's issued by the State.
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