North-South Rail Link Discussion

[BandA]

What I've read around here implies FRA regulations are much more cumbersome and backward than FTA regulations, making new CR somewhat less efficient than subway (or interurban)??

[CRail]

Should the fare be $2.25 between BOS & BON or should it be $13 to reflect the actual cost of providing the service through brand new tunnels with brand new deep stations?

There should be a $36 toll for every vehicle utilizing the Tip O'Neal and Ted Williams tunnels to reflect the actual cost of constructing that infrastructure, and a $78 toll should be assessed to uber, lyft, and commercial vehicles which profit off said infrastructure. When that happens, your ridiculous notion of 100% farebox recovery may be entertained.

[BandA]

$36 seems high even for the Big Dig. Passenger cars, taxis, uber, lyft, etc take up the same amount of space & should pay the same tolls. Out-of-state Ez-Pass should pay the same rate. Whatever NYC charges, charge half.

MBTA is valuable public infrastructure that it's riders should be happy to pay for, especially if they want more.

[CRail]

The interstate highway system is valuable public infrastructure that its users should be happy to pay for, especially if they are using it for their own profit.

[daybeers]

The interstate highway system is valuable public infrastructure that its users should be happy to pay for, especially if they are using it for their own profit.

This 100%! People don't realize how much interstates cost the federal and state governments annually, and some states don't even have tolls, like my home state of CT.

[BandA]

CT is making plans to add back the tolls, or at least CT, MA & RI governors were talking about it. RI has already added truck tolls so that it is hidden from the regular population (and trucks do cause additional wear that cars don't)

[BandA]

The interstate highway system is valuable public infrastructure that its users should be happy to pay for, especially if they are using it for their own profit.

This 100%! People don't realize how much interstates cost the federal and state governments annually, and some states don't even have tolls, like my home state of CT.

CRail's post really got me irritated - basically he wants his super-expensive N-S rail link & he wants someone else to pay for it. Not fair.

Gas taxes need to go up to cover road costs, would 50¢/gal more federal road tax solve for average road costs? State fuel tax needs to go up but not to exceed 5¢ above surrounding states. Electric & alternative-fuel vehicles need to pay a per-mile fee if they don't already. Tolls need to be removed on the Mass Pike from exit 4 (Springfield) to 17 (128) and from the Mystic River/Tobin Bridge. New tolls need to be added to the Big Dig. Tolls on the Turnpike Extension should be matched with new tolls on RT1, RT2, Southeast Expressway, Storrow Drive & Memorial Drive. All toll discounts should be eliminated. This should drive a few new customers to the T.

Transit rates need to be reformed - Subways, Express Bus & Commuter Rail should all pay similar rates per-mile. Extra cost for "Premium" areas like traversing BOS, BON, N-S rail link or the downtown subway stations.

The state budget https://budget.digital.mass.gov/bb/gaa/fy2020/ includes an astoundingly low 1.3% for transportation, down from 7% a few years ago.

[CRail]

If you think I'm pro-NSRL you've not been paying attention, though perhaps your notion serves as evidence to how objectively I moderate? The Commonwealth (MassDOT/MBTA/Massport/MassPike/MassHighway/MDC/MWRA/the state police...) has absolutly no business reopening the barely healed incision wound that should've included this project in the first place. If Amtrak wants to be able to add Portland to the NEC, then the feds can pay for the connection.

What gets me irritated is the idea that public transportation riders need to pay to cover the cost of their services while private automobile users enjoy tremendous subsidies of infrastructure capital and maintenance costs. Political automotive favoritism is 70 years overdue for extinction and the Big Dig is the most obvious example with other catastrophic failures like the Southwest expressway and inner-belt highway serving as earlier examples of tremendous waste thanks to an unhealthy obsession with personal car travel. I'm a Massachusetts taxpayer, anything that I "want" Massachusetts to pay for is something I'd be paying for, so your use of typical "fiscal conservative" propaganda suggesting that "I want someone else to pay for it" is utterly preposterous and quite frankly slanderous.

[ElectricTraction]

Continued from CR electrification thread.

Really? Have you ever been to Boston? Lets figure out whats near North Station within walking distance The Garden, Federal Office Buildings, Commonwealth Office Buildings, MGH, Converse, The North End, multiple hotels and food options, Brand new Buildings all over the place with new apartments and businesses and then you have parks and the Museum of Science. You also have a major transit hub between the Commuter Rail, Downeaster, Orange Line, Green Line, buses and commuter boat. There are many places where people want to go.

You may think otherwise since the North Shore and Merrimack Valley population is lower than the South Shore and Metro West.

The primary goal of NSRL is for people from the north side to be able to get to Central Station and South Station near the business district, but due to the sheer number of new station pairs that would be opened up, it's likely that a significant share of ridership would be a lot of low-volume station pairs that all add up to a lot. Add in transfers in the link itself, and you've got a plethora of new routes that open up. Of course people from the south accessing things near North Station would be a significant component of the utility of NSRL as well.

[west point]

How many trains would go thru and how many terminations requiring passengers needing to make a connection at BOS or BON . Worse still having to make connections at both stations. Only a bit better than using the orange line between stations. How often does Orange run as compared to probable traffic thru new north - south tunnel ?

[BandA]

The Orange Line probably runs as or more frequently than any likely NSRL. Every 7-9 minutes at peak times, 10-14 minutes off-peak now, late-covid. Perhaps more frequent pre-covid. Traveling between BBY & BON via Orange Line is five stations, so that's gonna generate some dwell and crowding conditions at rush hour, pre-covid. In the 1990s, it took Commuter Rail a ridiculous amount of time to go from BBY to BOS, at least on the Worcester Line tracks. So 1 transfer + 5 stations vs. (possibly) no transfer + 2 stations, a savings of at least 15 minutes, at a multibillion dollar cost, a likely cost per passenger higher than the $2.40 fare paid for a subway or zone-1A fare.

(do they actually provide the promised scheduled frequency on the Orange Line)

[FatNoah]

Traveling between BBY & BON via Orange Line is five stations, so that's gonna generate some dwell and crowding conditions at rush hour, pre-covid.

As a daily commuter from north of Boston to Back Bay Station, CR to OL felt like the worst of all possible options. The crowding to get on the OL was unbearable and I'd often have to wait for 2-4 trains to go by before actually being able to squeeze onto a train. (It was extra delightful in the summer).

In the end, I ended up driving and parking at Wellington. It added 50% time to my commute, but I could usually get on the first train to arrive and then have a one seat ride to BBY. If and when I did take the CR, I'd simply walk from North Station to BBY, with GL to Copley and OL as options of last resort.

[Arlington]

The new OL fleet and shorter headways should make the OL a better option in the mid term. Long Term all the current subway lines will be near their theoretical limit (after open gangways, fewer seats, and signal and entryway tweaks) we’re going to need a new tunnel somewhere.

[BandA]

Express track(s) for the subway lines make more sense to me than a NSRL.

[ElectricTraction]

NSRL is needed both to add capacity, but also to provide riders with fewer transfers, which will attract more riders, and reduce transit times. NSRL could be used within Boston, and compete with OL for certain trips, but that's not really it's purpose. NSRL with 4 tracks would run quite frequently during rush hour if you look at total number of trains going through.