Railroad Forums 

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

 #1472844  by DutchRailnut
 
state would loose in court cause they refused the same property only a few years ago. guaranteed.
 #1473083  by Ridgefielder
 
DutchRailnut wrote:state would loose in court cause they refused the same property only a few years ago. guaranteed.
I'm not too sure about that. Conrail sold the Danbury cluster in 1992. That's closer to a few decades than a few years in the past. And the physical plant has been allowed to decay to an alarming degree.

Bigger problem is prob. that the State of Conn. is flat broke and has no money to spend on this, whether through forced sale or not. It's more likely in my opinion that the Housy goes bust and P&W swoops in with Genesee & Wyoming's checkbook and buys the whole thing.
 #1473084  by Jeff Smith
 
I think certainly, HRRC, outside of the one transload facility, would do well to be rid of the Maybrook. No customers west, and to the east they can negotiate within the sale, i.e. forecast future revenue, or get (ironically) trackage rights to the east, etc.
 #1473161  by Backshophoss
 
Good time for HRRC to sell off to P&W(G&W),settle out of court and retreat to north of New Milford town line.
OR have P&W file for adverse abandonment to force the HRRC out of Danbury.
 #1483161  by BandA
 
You want the state to NOT have a study, and say they don't really want it, but are willing to buy it for pennies on the dollar just to get it off their hands. THEN do the study.

It's not that HRRC is passenger unfriendly, rather they are derailment-friendly!
 #1517858  by Backshophoss
 
The Catenary to Danbury was feed off of the mainline Substations,had only 1 feederline to the end,passenger service to Pittsfield
was down to weekend service(Fri NB/Sat RT by RDC/Sun SB back to NYC) and covered by the FL-9's.
The reason was to not do a power change at S Norwalk,so that's why Danbury branch got wire back in the day.
Remember the NH was Bankrupt when the wire was removed.

Voltage drop on the branch might have been an issue,as Cos Cob was the only generating station(Van Nest was gone)
could have been 9 kv 25hz. at Danbury.
 #1518354  by Ridgefielder
 
Backshophoss wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:21 pm The Catenary to Danbury was feed off of the mainline Substations,had only 1 feederline to the end,passenger service to Pittsfield
was down to weekend service(Fri NB/Sat RT by RDC/Sun SB back to NYC) and covered by the FL-9's.
The reason was to not do a power change at S Norwalk,so that's why Danbury branch got wire back in the day.
Remember the NH was Bankrupt when the wire was removed.

Voltage drop on the branch might have been an issue,as Cos Cob was the only generating station(Van Nest was gone)
could have been 9 kv 25hz. at Danbury.
Going to reinforce what was said here, as someone who grew up along the Danbury Branch and knows the area well.

The only reason the Danbury Branch was electrified back in 1923 was to eliminate an engine change for the Danbury through trains, and move the changeover for Pittsfield service. After the wire went up on the Danbury they were able to consolidate steam locomotive servicing and shut down facilities in Stamford. Unlike on the rest of the West End of the New Haven, the yards and sidings on the Danbury were never wired, nor was the short branch up the hill from Branchville to Ridgefield Center. Freight remained under steam. It was an economy move for passenger service, pure and simple.

If it had never been electrified, nobody would be talking about electrifying it today. Instead half the locals who know zero about railroad operations see the old Cat poles, see the old pictures, hear stories about how the Berkshire carried a diner and parlor cars "back in grandpa's day" and think stringing up 20 miles of 12.5kV wire will magically give us the Danbury Acela. [end of rant]
 #1518375  by EuroStar
 
This got me thinking why the same argument does not apply today in respect to diesels the way it applied back then in respect to steam. Why isn't it cheaper to just make use of electrics to Danbury and avoid maintaining diesels on the New Haven Line? The answer is obvious: for the foreseable future ConnDOT cannot drop the diesels as they are needed for the Waterbury Branch, the Hartford Line and the Shore Line East. As long as they need to buy/maintain diesel fleets for those lines, buying/maintaining a few more for the Danbury Branch is not that big of a deal (I am leaving aside the issue that Waterbury and Danbury are part of Metro-North while the others are not). The question then is, why was it cheaper back then for NHRR to string the wire and close the facilities in Stamford? Didn't NHRR need to maintain diesels/steam for those other lines too including for any trains going north to Boston? Why didn't they use whatever they had in New Haven for that purpose?
 #1518486  by Ridgefielder
 
EuroStar wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:11 pm This got me thinking why the same argument does not apply today in respect to diesels the way it applied back then in respect to steam. Why isn't it cheaper to just make use of electrics to Danbury and avoid maintaining diesels on the New Haven Line? The answer is obvious: for the foreseable future ConnDOT cannot drop the diesels as they are needed for the Waterbury Branch, the Hartford Line and the Shore Line East. As long as they need to buy/maintain diesel fleets for those lines, buying/maintaining a few more for the Danbury Branch is not that big of a deal (I am leaving aside the issue that Waterbury and Danbury are part of Metro-North while the others are not). The question then is, why was it cheaper back then for NHRR to string the wire and close the facilities in Stamford? Didn't NHRR need to maintain diesels/steam for those other lines too including for any trains going north to Boston? Why didn't they use whatever they had in New Haven for that purpose?
By the mid-1920's the only steam locomotives left based in Stamford were those used as power on the Danbury through trains. Electrification was extended from Stamford to New Haven in 1914, and all through service N/E of New Haven swapped power there. The New Canaan branch, from Stamford to New Canaan, was electrified even earlier, in the mid 1890's. By wiring to Danbury the NH was able to outright close the Stamford facility and consolidate operations at the Danbury engine terminal, which in addition to the Danbury and Berkshire lines served the (very busy) E-W Maybrook freight line from Devon to the Poughkeepsie Bridge. Classic efficiency move, really.

And the reason the argument no longer applies-- and the reason the wire came down in '61-- was the development of dual-mode Electric/Diesel-Electric locomotives that could operate off 3rd rail power in the Park Avenue tunnel and Grand Central yards. No engine change needed anymore, period.
 #1519600  by TCurtin
 
Ridgefielder wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:17 pm
Going to reinforce what was said here, as someone who grew up along the Danbury Branch and knows the area well.

The only reason the Danbury Branch was electrified back in 1923 was to eliminate an engine change for the Danbury through trains, and move the changeover for Pittsfield service. After the wire went up on the Danbury they were able to consolidate steam locomotive servicing and shut down facilities in Stamford. Unlike on the rest of the West End of the New Haven, the yards and sidings on the Danbury were never wired, nor was the short branch up the hill from Branchville to Ridgefield Center. Freight remained under steam. It was an economy move for passenger service, pure and simple.

If it had never been electrified, nobody would be talking about electrifying it today. Instead half the locals who know zero about railroad operations see the old Cat poles, see the old pictures, hear stories about how the Berkshire carried a diner and parlor cars "back in grandpa's day" and think stringing up 20 miles of 12.5kV wire will magically give us the Danbury Acela. [end of rant]
I may be the only living user of this forum who actually remembers riding the Danbury branch when it was electrified (How's that for a bizarre distinction?). I rode it before and after the electrics gave way to FL9s and can tell you categorically there was no difference in performance.

Two major service problems occurred over my memory:
1. Deterioration of track. There were two major wrecks: in February 1967 and May 1973. The 1973 wreck resulted in a fatality (ironically of a RR employee who lived in Danbury and commuted to his office in NYC. I knew him slightly). BY mid 1975 the track had been upgraded by CDOT funding. This was the first huge improvement.

2. Closing of the block stations in Branchville (completely) and Wilton (afternoons and nights). This made it inconvenient and caused some delays in evening commute hours because crews were required to either radio or phone to the operator at "Berk" in Norwalk for clearance. That of course remained until the TCS went into effect just a few years ago.

That TCS was the second greatest service improvement.

I have written on this forum on at least three previous occasions that re-electrification will not do a thing to result in further improvement in running times. I say this after many years of riding and closely observing the operation of the line.I can tell you this and tell you this and tell you this until I'm blue in the face and the talk still goes on.

BTW, three historical items:
- first electric operation was June 29 1925. This was long before I was around.
- Last electric operation was January 28 1961. The power was turned off effective Feb. 1. I rode the line once in January 1961 not realizing it would by my last ride under wire.
- I laughed at the comment about "Back in grandpa's day." Well, I am a grandpa and I did ride a parlor car on the line while the New Haven was still running it on weekends. Never rode a diner, though, unless you count the diner and later grill car that were converted to bar cars on one of the commute runs.

Cheers,
Tom
 #1519809  by TCurtin
 
Rockingham Racer wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:14 am Tom, I remember the EP-5s [the Jets] rolling by JO tower in Woodlawn in the late 60's. I believe only a few rush hour trains were run throughs. The rest of the day people changed at South Norwalk, IIRC.
Until the end of the New Haven in 1968 there was more through service to Danbury than just the couple of rush hour trains, all had had FL9s since the fall of 1960. The non rush hour trains were the remnants of what were once the Pittsfield trains. And of course there were still a couple of Pittsfield trains on weekends.
 #1526335  by Fishrrman
 
Tom Curtin wrote:
"I may be the only living user of this forum who actually remembers riding the Danbury branch when it was electrified (How's that for a bizarre distinction?). I rode it before and after the electrics gave way to FL9s and can tell you categorically there was no difference in performance."

Nope.
I got my very first train ride from South Norwalk to Cannondale on one of the old black MU cars back in late 1954-early 1955.

Later on, got my first ride on an engine at Georgetown yard (there WAS a yard and station in Georgetown in the old days), an Alco RS unit (can't remember which particular model). This was back when they were rebuilding Route 53 between Georgetown and Westport, and unloading bluestone from hoppers in Georgetown yard.

I probably should have quit then.
It eventually led to 32 years "on the big engines" with Conrail, Metro-North, and Amtrak...

(J.Albert)
 #1529393  by dha10001
 
Since you all piled on and had a fit over the Danbury question, let me follow up with some evidence:

The "Danbury Branch Improvement Program AA/DEIS" (Google it), a 33 page document thick with simulated trip data, found that on an upgraded Danbury Branch with a 60mph top speed and some curve reductions, EMUs would be 16 minutes faster than diesel trains, for a travel time of 41 minutes or less.

You can all argue over whether that upgrade is warranted - I think it is - but let's stop dismissing the clear benefits.

And tree trimming, I think, is something that can be handled.
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