Amtrak Expansion Plan

[Rockingham Racer]

Thanks for that. And I just want to remind us that Amtrak ran its overnight Spirit of California for a couple of years in the early 80s.

[Gilbert B Norman]

From Imlauer Pitter Hotel Salzburg--

Did this discussion ever light up since I went overseas!

Now regarding the Coast Daylight proposal, I cannot imagine two trains, namely the existing Starlight and a proposed Daylight "chasing.markers". I would guess the through train will be broken with passengers "overnighting" in the Bay Area and those wishing to "get there" doing the Bus-Train-Bus down the Valley.

Additional savings would be gained from elimination of full service dining and Sleeping cars on the Daylight.

[Station Aficionado]

Would this service use a station other than Jack London Square in Oakland? Trying to understand the connection in San Francisco ...

Pretty sure the connection between Jack London Square (for most Amtrak trains) and San Francisco Caltrain Depot (for the proposed Coast Daylight) would either be in San Jose or a self-transfer via BART and other transit.[qu

Yep. The Daylight would leave either the CalTrain station or the new Transbay Terminal (whichever is in operation), follow the CalTrain route down the peninsula through Palo Alto and Santa Clara to San Jose and Gilroy, then swing west to the coast. Oakland passengers would connect via a Capital in San Jose, or BART in San Francisco.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

Yep. The Daylight would leave either the CalTrain station or the new Transbay Terminal (whichever is in operation), follow the CalTrain route down the peninsula through Palo Alto and Santa Clara to San Jose and Gilroy, then swing west to the coast. Oakland passengers would connect via a Capital in San Jose, or BART in San Francisco.

Or take the actual Starlight since it's probably leaving around the same timeframe. I get that the SB Starlight which starts in Seattle might be late to Oakland.

On the bright side UP hardly uses the Coast Sub so there won't be a fight for access. Crossing inventory for Salinas and Atascadero show only 2 switching freight movements per day.

[mtuandrew]

Or take the actual Starlight since it's probably leaving around the same timeframe. I get that the SB Starlight which starts in Seattle might be late to Oakland.

On the bright side UP hardly uses the Coast Sub so there won't be a fight for access. Crossing inventory for Salinas and Atascadero show only 2 switching freight movements per day.

Sure seems like a waste to have two trains on each other’s markers, doesn’t it? Might be an excuse for Amtrak to shift the Coast Starlight to an earlier departure time so the Amtrak California Coast Daylight can have a 10am-10pm schedule.

[gokeefe]

Yep. The Daylight would leave either the CalTrain station or the new Transbay Terminal (whichever is in operation), follow the CalTrain route down the peninsula through Palo Alto and Santa Clara to San Jose and Gilroy, then swing west to the coast. Oakland passengers would connect via a Capital in San Jose, or BART in San Francisco.

Thank you for giving me a really good excuse to read up on the Transbay Terminal and it's replacement the Transbay Transit Center now formally known as the Salesforce Transit Center. I had no idea why Amtrak didn't serve downtown San Francisco directly.

I would imagine that the completion of the new Transit Center will greatly assist in accelerating the Coast Daylight proposal.

[electricron]

Or take the actual Starlight since it's probably leaving around the same timeframe. I get that the SB Starlight which starts in Seattle might be late to Oakland.

On the bright side UP hardly uses the Coast Sub so there won't be a fight for access. Crossing inventory for Salinas and Atascadero show only 2 switching freight movements per day.

Sure seems like a waste to have two trains on each other’s markers, doesn’t it? Might be an excuse for Amtrak to shift the Coast Starlight to an earlier departure time so the Amtrak California Coast Daylight can have a 10am-10pm schedule.

Whereas I agree running a Daylight train makes more sense during the day than at night, if only for servicing intermediate stations at a reasonable hour, switching the Starlight running time between SJ and LA also affects when it runs between SJ and Seattle.
Northbound
The Starlight departs LA at 1010 and arrives in:
San Jose at 2011
Sacramento at 2359
Eugene at 1236
Portland at 1532
Seattle at 1956
What would happen if it was delayed and left LA later, about 6 hours later at 1610?
It would arrive at
San Jose at 0211
Sacramento at 0559
Eugene at 1836
Portland at 2132
Seattle at 0156
That does not work. So what would happen if it departed LA 6 hours sooner at 0410?
San Jose at 1411
Sacramento at 1759
Eugene at 0636
Portland at 0932
Seattle at 1356
Works everywhere but LA, does not work either.

Anther thing I would like to add is a day train between Oakland/SF and LA would require two additional train sets at a minimum, so a train can depart from each terminus station early in the morning, like 7-8 am and arrive at the other end 11.5 hours later, 6-7 pm. Both train sets would sit idle overnight for the reurn trip the next morning.
Where will Amtrak find these train sets, and how long would it take to build them?

[mtuandrew]

I suggest Amtrak wouldn’t find the equipment for those Coast Daylight trainsets at all; Caltrans would. They’d be a very nice coming-out-of-retirement home for the Budd Hi-Levels, both the Parlours and some number of the stored third-party-owned coaches. A single trip daily wouldn’t overtax a well-rebuilt Hi-Level coach, as it doesn’t for the rebuilt Comet IB coaches that California also owns.

[gokeefe]

Although at least one of two of these proposals may not work out the prospects for most of them look excellent.

1. Downeaster: Seasonal service extension to Rockland

2. Gulf Coast: Service between Mobile and New Orleans

3. Midwest: Service between Chicago, Detroit and Toronto

4. Ethan Allen: Extension to Burlington

5. Vermonter: Extension to Montreal

6. Inland Corridor: Service between Boston and Springfield (operator not certain to be Amtrak)

7. Valley Flyer: Service between Springfield and Greenfield (starting within the next 30 days)

8. Berkshire Flyer: Seasonal service between New York Penn and Pittsfield

9. New York: Service between New York Penn and Long Island

10. Heartland Flyer: Extension to Newton via Wichita

11. Illinois: Service between Chicago and the Quad Cities

12. Illinois: Service between Chicago and Rockford

13. Minnesota: Service between Minneapolis St. Paul and Duluth (operator not certain to be Amtrak)

14. Coast Daylight: Service between points north of San Francisco and Los Angeles

Clarification on the exact terminal points of the Coast Daylight would be appreciated.

[mtuandrew]

George: another member reminded us up-thread about the New York to Berkshires service trial as well.

[lordsigma12345]

Massachusetts is also studying an east-west corridor that could go on the list. All of the six alternatives run between Springfield and Boston with some also extending the service to Pittsfield. No decisions have been made on who would operate it or how.

This is a tricky one too but I will admit that getting all of these communities to join the MBTA would be nearly impossible. That means "more likely than not" that Amtrak will be the operator.

Perhaps if it goes forward they’ll get proposals from both Amtrak and Keolis (operator of MBTA’s rail lines) and decide based on that. The alternatives go everywhere from a bare minimum alternative which would be only the essential track upgrades and a Shuttle train that would run from WOR to SPG stopping at Palmer and having to connect to existing MBTA trains to a pie in the sky option where they’d build a New right of way along I-90 and run a true high speed service. The more moderate (and best) options involve more reasonable upgrades to the existing line and a standalone express service separate from the existing MBTA trains and stopping only at Palmer, Worcester, Back Bay, and Boston. (Maybe they’d throw in Framingham too if Amtrak was operating it.) I frankly would prefer Amtrak as the operator because it would mean that 448/449 could provide a base for the schedule. While 448 can be unreliable, 449 can play a useful role in the schedule.

[lordsigma12345]

From Imlauer Pitter Hotel Salzburg--

Did this discussion ever light up since I went overseas!

Now regarding the Coast Daylight proposal, I cannot imagine two trains, namely the existing Starlight and a proposed Daylight "chasing.markers". I would guess the through train will be broken with passengers "overnighting" in the Bay Area and those wishing to "get there" doing the Bus-Train-Bus down the Valley.

Additional savings would be gained from elimination of full service dining and Sleeping cars on the Daylight.

I don’t think they’ll kill the Starlight - I think it’s one of the few overnighters the current regime wants to run. It seems they’d like to kill the other long distance trains and focus on making the Zephyr, Builder, and Starlight into “experiential trains.” But the daylight corridor idea seems sound.

On another note I hope the weather is treating you well in Salzburg!

[Ridgefielder]

There's room at Montauk yard for Amtrak to lay over,may need to build a ground power supply,and possibly truck in fuel.
Only stops would be Jamaica or Hicksville(Divide tower) for the Greenport connection,Babylon,Speonk,Bridgehampton and Montauk .
Consist would be 4 coaches,1 Cafe,and 2 Biz class cars,1 baggage at beginning and end of season,
power is 1 P-32DM.
Season is end of April to end of Sept.
Not sure if LIRR will allow Pvt cars,or send a switcher to Montauk to to switch them on/off Amtrak,Cost could be $$$$$

3rd track Mainline when online to Divide,and with the CTC now reaching Montauk,should not be a dealbreaker to run
as most sidings are within control points.

If this is a summer-only service, your stops should be Jamaica (connection to everywhere), Bay Shore (for the Fire Island boats), Westhampton, Southampton, East Hampton, Montauk.

I know that sounds like a lot of stops on the East End but the traffic on the South Fork in summer is something else. Bridgehampton might look centrally located on a map but the station's just a parking lot and platform off on the edge of the village, and it could take 45+ minutes to get there from Southampton or Amagansett.

[eolesen]

None of that matters because he is cutting dinners on the long distance trains. They also seem to be overlooking the fact He is doing it to comply with a congress mandate by 2020

Yep. They somehow place dinner on a china plate as more important than increasing train service to communities where it might have a chance of success.

[ExCon90]

Sure seems like a waste to have two trains on each other’s markers, doesn’t it? Might be an excuse for Amtrak to shift the Coast Starlight to an earlier departure time so the Amtrak California Coast Daylight can have a 10am-10pm schedule.

I think the reason for the mid-morning departure from LA in the first place is that back in 1971 there was supposed to be a through train from San Diego to Seattle. Quite soon thereafter they changed the origin to LA but retained the same departure time to protect the SD connection; today an earlier LA departure could be adopted for one of the trains; having the Starlight leave earlier would provide better arrival times all the way up the coast.