New Atlanta Station

[SouthernRailway]

There is also plenty of private-sector development in Midtown and northern Atlanta and the northern suburbs.

I think advocating for less dense development in the middle of a major urban area makes no sense whatsoever. Atlanta should be far bigger and far more developed within its urban core than it is.

Atlanta should have a much larger urban core, and I certainly prefer downtown development over suburban development. (I dislike driving and so I have no desire to live in a suburb.)

Unfortunately Atlanta is fractured by huge class/income splits, with downtown Atlanta viewed by suburbanites north of the city as inhospitable. Midtown Atlanta and Buckhead have sprung up as "downtowns" for those suburbanites. In short, it's an urban planning (and socioeconomic) mess. I view this station project as a mess, though, too.

[gokeefe]

I view this station project as a mess, though, too.

I think that's a point well taken.

In reference to downtown Atlanta a lot of people felt the same way about Washington DC after the riot in '68 and until well into the early '90s. The answer was improved transit which occurred in the form of Metro Rail, the renovation of Union Station and the creation of commuter rail systems in both Maryland and Virginia.

Unlike Atlanta, Washington DC most certainly did not have large vacant lots left behind by major industrial complexes. Depending on how you handle that it is both a curse and a blessing.

[mtuandrew]

SRY: also the case for Dallas-Ft. Worth and Detroit. There is only so much you can solve with 16-lane highways and planned exurban communities. I spent a pleasant few days in the planned community of Frisco, TX for the Museum of the American Railroad, but by no means is cookie-cutter mostly-white Frisco a substitute for a multicultural, organically-grown, vertically-developed city center.

This proposal may be stinky hot air, but an Atlanta Union Station itself is a good idea even for 1x/day.

Mr. O'Keefe: Is also argue that D.C. Home Rule played a large part in redevelopment, but that is neither here nor there.

[Bob Roberts]

SRY: also the case for Dallas-Ft. Worth and Detroit. There is only so much you can solve with 16-lane highways and planned exurban communities. I spent a pleasant few days in the planned community of Frisco, TX for the Museum of the American Railroad, but by no means is cookie-cutter mostly-white Frisco a substitute for a multicultural, organically-grown, vertically-developed city center.

This proposal may be stinky hot air, but an Atlanta Union Station itself is a good idea even for 1x/day.

It may also be worth appreciating the regional context of Atlanta's station. A new station in Raleigh, soon to be 6x per day service north of Charlotte (on double track!), a mostly funded new downtown station in Charlotte (even if its progressing very slowly) and continued catastrophic congestion in North Georgia all combine to make Atlanta see the importance of denser development and the associated transportation alternatives. The city is very concerned about choking on its own success -- so the folks in Atlanta proper see the importance of rail to their future. The last transit tax election results show that Atlantan's are willing to pay for these improvements, unfortunately suburban residents are not willing to pay their share.

[SouthernRailway]

I've never been to Detroit and can't speak for it, but I'd say that Atlanta's class/income split, which tracks the downtown/suburb split, is much, much sharper than Dallas. Downtown Dallas has a Neiman Marcus---downtown Atlanta has a vacant Macy's, indicating the class/income of the people there.

Back on topic, I'd think that whatever new station is built, the current Peachtree station location (in general) is pretty ideal: in Midtown, so in between downtown and suburbia, near a subway station and in a densifying area. I'd guess that many Crescent riders could not easily make it to distant suburbia to catch a train there, and northern suburbanites wouldn't jump to come downtown to catch a train there.

[gokeefe]

Back on topic, I'd think that whatever new station is built, the current Peachtree station location (in general) is pretty ideal: in Midtown, so in between downtown and suburbia, near a subway station and in a densifying area. I'd guess that many Crescent riders could not easily make it to distant suburbia to catch a train there, and northern suburbanites wouldn't jump to come downtown to catch a train there.

I think you're right but I see that point in the sense of retaining Peachtree. There's no question at all that the factors you cite would make it a very successful station that would nicely complement a new downtown facility.

Similar in many respects to stations like Back Bay in Boston, New Carrollton in Washington DC, and Glenview in Chicago.

[mtuandrew]

How would you compare it to North Philadelphia? (Obviously located in a poor part of town, but as it was a railroad necessity for through traffic NYC-HAR and points west...)

[ExCon90]

North Philadelphia had a different reason for being than those others, having been established primarily to avoid a time-consuming reversal of through east-west trains at Broad Street rather than tapping a suburban market. Paoli was more like Glenview et al. (And in the heyday of east-west through trains North Philadelphia was not in a poor part of town; blue-collar but not poor. That came later.) Come to think of it, the Reading's counterpart to North Philadelphia, North Broad Street, was an intermediate stop en route to and from Reading Terminal and was intended to tap that area for passengers to outlying points on the Reading--it could also be used for connecting rail passengers from the John O'Hara country--Reading, Pottsville, etc.--to avoid retracing steps to and from Reading Terminal.

[gokeefe]

How would you compare it to North Philadelphia? (Obviously located in a poor part of town, but as it was a railroad necessity for through traffic NYC-HAR and points west...)

North Philadelphia came to mind as well but I avoided mentioned it because I felt it was an imperfect comparison in part for the reasons ExCon90 mentioned and in part because of the abysmally low level of ridership from that station.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Continuing with my earlier and Mr. Roberts' thoughts, I was in Atlanta this past weekend. The hotel at which I stay is on the Perimeter (aka I-285) and I did not venture further South than Buckhead.

So far as I'm concerned, Atlanta has the "world's worst drivers".

Somehow, I think that Cobb County is the fastest growing Atlanta region county, but I will defer to more substance than my "hunch". I-75 from Marietta in to the 285 simply is a rolling parking lot. So how does Cobb respond to their traffic situation. THEY BUILD LEXUS LANES.

Well, never mind that this Lexus owner's "ride" will not see the pavement of such, and you can be sure with their demand pricing tolls, "it ain't coming cheap". But wouldn't more public benefit be gained if those same funds were used to build a MARTA line - especially since the Braves have relocated there, and as I noted, Braves fans have made use of MARTA.

Time for Cobb to bury the acronym MARTA - "Moving A#$%^@ns Rapidly through Atlanta". Time to accept that the Atlanta region is very Cosmopolitan.

[east point]

A present Georgia DOT study expects I-75 traffic to more than double in 4 years. Build it and they will come. In this case it is all the vehicle traffic. Enough water for the ATL metro area is going to become a real problem in a few years.

[jstolberg]

GBN, I was in Marietta for a couple days this month myself, so I know whereof you speak. My wife will be there for a few days next month and then I return again in December. It's a heck of a commute from here in Colorado so we're going to have to put an end to that. But I agree, the last few miles to Marietta on I-75 are a real crawl.

So Georgia DOT's solution seems to be flying cars, or lacking that, aerial roadways.

Economically, the city is the regional hub for the Southeast. There are 35 million people within a 300 mile radius and 81 million within 500 miles. That compares with 47 million within 300 miles of Chicago and 84 million within 500 miles. But the population growth in the southeast is 4 times as fast as the midwest. Major cities within 300 miles of Atlanta include Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, Birmingham, Greenville and Knoxville. Of those 6, there are direct rail connections only to Greenville, Charlotte and Birmingham; and those only once a day.

[gokeefe]

Economically, the city is the regional hub for the Southeast. There are 35 million people within a 300 mile radius and 81 million within 500 miles. That compares with 47 million within 300 miles of Chicago and 84 million within 500 miles. But the population growth in the southeast is 4 times as fast as the midwest. Major cities within 300 miles of Atlanta include Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, Birmingham, Greenville and Knoxville. Of those 6, there are direct rail connections only to Greenville, Charlotte and Birmingham; and those only once a day.

Textbook example (probably literally at this point) of truly unsustainable development.

Congestion on interstate highways is good news ... it is the one thing that will always break a political log jam on passenger rail service policy.

[east point]

Comparison of CHI and ATL brings up problem that ATL only has 9 main tracks and a couple secondary routes into the city. 6 of the routes merge into 3 routes a long distance from ATL.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Messrs. O'Keefe and Stolberg; no wonder Marietta can be considered a railfan hot spot, as that is where the N,C, & StL (route of the Georgian and The Great Locomotive Chase and the line to Cincinnati (route of The Flamingo) converge. Even if coal is on the way out, there is plenty of auto assembly around there (purchased parts in, finished auto out). Accordingly, I doubt if Yager (too lazy to find the ASCII code for "a" with dots on top) would be too receptive for proposals for any kind of passenger train on his rails, for we all know railroading is "precision"

If there is to be additional passenger rail in the region, it will be MARTA.

Finally to Mr. Stolberg; if you flew in to KATL Hartsfield and rented, you know first hand how driving amongst the world's worst drivers is "sport". Finally to the driver of that Porsche 911 last Friday evening; I'm so sorry that I slowed down so much to 45 at the 285/400 interchange and that I caused you to pass me in the safety lane at maybe 70.