Amtrak/LIRR Moynihan Train Hall

[BandA]

If you were to "cleanroom" Penn Station and MSG within the existing footprint + Moynihan, would you end up with a better track layout & better concourse with higher capacity? If you replaced MSG, would there be longer spans or construction techniques that reduced the amount of support posts?

[NaugyRR]

Regarding using Penn's transit options to access events at the Garden, I don't believe claiming it's underutilized is accurate. I personally took Amtrak down to Penn for a Rush concert at the Garden a couple years ago, and stayed at the New Yorker a few blocks over. I actually found it to be a better experience than the time I drove down to Harbor Yard to see them prior. There were also a few more Rush fans on my train home, so it's not like I was the only one. You can also tell when PBR is in town, and surely not all rodeo fans roaming Penn Station are there to just use the restrooms or eat

[35dtmrs92]

I will concede I am not certain about the modal share for MSG event goers; I thought I remembered where my source was but I have not been able to find it. The bottom line is that, on the Penn Station superblock, the allocation of space among the 20,000 fans MSG can accommodate at any one time and the 300,000 daily users of the station is upside down. Stadia are relatively inefficient users of urban space to begin with, much less urban space as centrally located and valuable as the site of the Western Hemisphere's busiest rail hub. Getting MSG off the site greatly simplifies the task of redoing the area to serve the travelers first. For the future MSG, I think that Citi Field strikes a good balance between transit access (whereas the Coliseum has none) and the need to bring in team/performer buses and trucks--which don't play that nicely with Midtown streets--expediently. As for what other uses may replace MSG, there is a glut of retail and office space, and housing is probably inappropriate for the site. Which makes it all the better, as the site could be exclusively a public commons (I would think some kind of air rights transfer could be worked out to make sure the developers come out ahead).

Don't get me wrong, I get that MSG's current location matters to management and to event goers. If there is a way to combine an airy, ample, functional train hall occupying a majority of the space--and rising above ground level to boot--with a new stadium occupying a minority (Mr. Nasadowsk proposed this early in this thread) I am for it. Repurposing the MSG theater leaving the current arena intact does not cut the mustard. The Chakrabarti plan to convert the MSG superstructure to a train hall does not cut the mustard. Both plans would leave the eastern concourse and platform area underneath Two Penn, where the most severe congestion is, deprived of light and space. "Cleanrooming" the site is what is called for. Most people at the site are rail and/or subway passengers, and their well-being must come first.

[BandA]

I for one was suggesting a clean sheet as an exercise to explore the upper end potential for the station. Track layout and concourses are important, LED lighting will have to substitute for sunlight. Hopefully they pump enough oxygen in.

Would two layers of tracks be possible?

[Backshophoss]

Penn was built as a Single level station,to add a lower level would require decades of tunneling under the current track level,and worming
around any Subway tunnels and the water tunnels.
Then how do you get people to that level,the current concourses are already overloaded!
And how would you tie into the East River Tubes,the North(Hudson)River tubes and the Gateway Tubes?

When GCT was built the lower level was done first(and in sections to boot) then the upper level was built.

[Greg Moore]

Note I believe the ultimate, pie in the sky HSR/Gateway/IF we had lots of money drawings do indicate the possibility of a lower level (I believe the Gateway tunnel actually more formally would provide for this). But that's pretty pie in the sky.

It would solve one problem (more tracks) but cause others (getting to them for both trains and people for one).

[Jeff Smith]

Penn South IIRC adds tracks/platforms.

[JamesRR]

P

When GCT was built the lower level was done first(and in sections to boot) then the upper level was built.

Just to clarify, both the upper and lower levels were built simultaneously in "bites," or sections, so the old station tracks could be used until the new levels were operational.

As mentioned here, Gateway includes adding 7 tracks south of the current Track 1 - which would improve capacity for NJT.

[Ridgefielder]

Everyone should bear in mind that a relocation of MSG doesn't just involve commuter rail access but transit access. The Garden's current location between the 7th Ave. IRT (1/2/3) and the 8th Ave. IND (A/C/E) makes it accessible to just about every subway line in the city with one or two transfers. In a city of 8mm where pretty much everyone gets around by subway that's a big deal.

My personal hunch is that at some point we're going to hear of a deal to relocate MSG to Hudson Yards near the new 34th St. 7-train station. Current MSG gets blown up and replaced by a massive combination retail/office/hotel (think Battery Park City) with a much airier concourse, etc.

NY real estate developers don't tend to think small...

[east point]

Believe that ARC planned to be lower than present NYPS tracks. Had a friend who claimed that he rode one of the NYPS elevators from concourse level- past platforms- to down below the track level that had a basement for moving baggage. There were cross tunnels to other locations under other platforms. Very skeptical that this was the case but who knows ?

[STrRedWolf]

From as much GoogleFu I can do on an iPhone, the collective consensus is that the MTA subways are above Penn Station's tracks. So they can go much deeper... if they can figure a way to get people down there.

[EuroStar]

The only way to have shallow tracks at the depth level of the current station is to blow up a full city block. That is what the proposed Penn South with its 7 tracks does. Anything that does not blow up the existing buildings needs to be really deep. While I do not know how deep the basements of buildings around the area are, Macy's being an old building is probably the shallowest with two levels only. New high rise construction goes really deep. I remember hearing of a building being planned with 7 level basement somewhere in Manhattan. Like it or not, any deep station will not be shallower than the "train to Macy's basement".

IMO MSG is not going anywhere whether we like it or not. The best we can hope is that it gets demolished and rebuilt much higher, possibly with a skyscraper on top, freeing the first 4-6 floors for an airy station. The transit options for coming from NJ, Long Island and even Connecticut are just too valuable to the owners. The next best is, as I said earlier, to get rid of the theater on the west side of MSG. Together with Moynihan that might make the station acceptable and capable of handling the demand for another century.

[Rockingham Racer]

From as much GoogleFu I can do on an iPhone, the collective consensus is that the MTA subways are above Penn Station's tracks. So they can go much deeper... if they can figure a way to get people down there.

If you've ever taken the #7 train from Grand Central, you know how deep down the platform is there. That's one long escalator ride!

[JamesRR]

From as much GoogleFu I can do on an iPhone, the collective consensus is that the MTA subways are above Penn Station's tracks. So they can go much deeper... if they can figure a way to get people down there.

If you've ever taken the #7 train from Grand Central, you know how deep down the platform is there. That's one long escalator ride!

Yes, and there are tail tracks that go significantly south. I believe they had to work around them for the tunnel box that was built.

Either way, I believe Gateway includes the purchase of the block south of Penn Station in order to demolish it and add tracks. Which adds a great opportunity to include natural light onto the platforms below.

[JamesRR]

*I put this here since it technically affects all 3 RR's' at Penn*

This morning I noticed the new West End Concourse opened - greatly expanded to track 5 now, much wider, with all new finishes, signage, and digital departure boards. I think I was the only one on my NJ Transit train who used it.

No fanfare - I'm wondering if there will be none due to the issues at Penn lately, or if today was a soft opening. I would think they'd want to promote the improved access to the street and subway, to move crowds out of Penn.